Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

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Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Victor Westmann
Hi team,

I was not sure as where I was supposed to open this discussion (or question) of mine.

I was just wondering... I do know that it takes a lot of time, and money, and then more time, and probably a lot of revisions... but do you guys think we can try to aim making something similar to this? https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/designer/workbook/

This is a hard copy, printed, material that Affinity Designer, from the Serif company, sell. I confess I don't have a copy of this material (yet) as it seems it only exists, officially, in the printed version... but I saw some samples and was really inspired and eager to check if we could do something on our own more or less of the same kind.

We could try to use the Scribus to achieve such results.. and some open fonts (from Google and Adobe) and try to assemble 4 - 6 different big learning areas inside this Inkscape Activity Book.

They could be:

1. Creating isometric graphics, (there is a super sweet plugin that works wonderfully in Inkscape 0.91.2)
2. Vectorizing simple photos,
3. creating logos (or recreating famous ones (not sure this is allowed)), there are multiple AMAZING examples of this on Nick Saporito Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEQXp_fcqwPcqrzNtWJ1w9w)
4. UX-UI design to create webpage (or mobile apps) mockups.

I know it is a lot of work. But we could try doing a smaller and simpler version of it to see how it goes.

It would help us gather more money to the Inkscape project and follow, more or less, the model of Krita (they have a paid support option and some books to sell as well) and Blender (they have a store with multiple long and detailed tutorials on how to do things in videos (DVDs)).

Just wondering... I know this might be asking too much... but I plan to be involved in this. Even if we have time for only 1 or 2 modules. It would be amazing to craft such material and spread it to the community (paid or free).


--Victor Westmann

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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

C R
I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd like.
It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack of time/hands involved.

Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
-C


On 28 Apr 2017 07:17, "Victor Westmann" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi team,

I was not sure as where I was supposed to open this discussion (or question) of mine.

I was just wondering... I do know that it takes a lot of time, and money, and then more time, and probably a lot of revisions... but do you guys think we can try to aim making something similar to this? https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/designer/workbook/

This is a hard copy, printed, material that Affinity Designer, from the Serif company, sell. I confess I don't have a copy of this material (yet) as it seems it only exists, officially, in the printed version... but I saw some samples and was really inspired and eager to check if we could do something on our own more or less of the same kind.

We could try to use the Scribus to achieve such results.. and some open fonts (from Google and Adobe) and try to assemble 4 - 6 different big learning areas inside this Inkscape Activity Book.

They could be:

1. Creating isometric graphics, (there is a super sweet plugin that works wonderfully in Inkscape 0.91.2)
2. Vectorizing simple photos,
3. creating logos (or recreating famous ones (not sure this is allowed)), there are multiple AMAZING examples of this on Nick Saporito Youtube channel (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCEQXp_fcqwPcqrzNtWJ1w9w)
4. UX-UI design to create webpage (or mobile apps) mockups.

I know it is a lot of work. But we could try doing a smaller and simpler version of it to see how it goes.

It would help us gather more money to the Inkscape project and follow, more or less, the model of Krita (they have a paid support option and some books to sell as well) and Blender (they have a store with multiple long and detailed tutorials on how to do things in videos (DVDs)).

Just wondering... I know this might be asking too much... but I plan to be involved in this. Even if we have time for only 1 or 2 modules. It would be amazing to craft such material and spread it to the community (paid or free).


--Victor Westmann

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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Raghavendra kamath
In reply to this post by Victor Westmann
Hi Everyone,

On 2017 Apr 27 23:16:00, Victor Westmann wrote:
> Hi team,
>
> I was not sure as where I was supposed to open this discussion (or
> question) of mine.
>
> I was just wondering... I do know that it takes a lot of time, and money,
> and then more time, and probably a lot of revisions... but do you guys
> think we can try to aim making something similar to this?
> https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/designer/workbook/

> This is a hard copy, printed, material that Affinity Designer, from the
> Serif company, sell. I confess I don't have a copy of this material (yet)
> as it seems it only exists, officially, in the printed version... but I saw
> some samples and was really inspired and eager to check if we could do
> something on our own more or less of the same kind.
>
> We could try to use the Scribus to achieve such results.. and some open
> fonts (from Google and Adobe) and try to assemble 4 - 6 different big
> learning areas inside this Inkscape Activity Book.

Something similar that comes to my mind from Krita project is a book from Scott Petrovic called Digital painting with Krita 2.9
here is the link for it -> https://www.amazon.com/Digital-Painting-KRITA-2-9-Masterpiece/dp/0996851704/

I know this took a considerable energy and time for Scott to write this book, but it is a fine example of a reference book.
So it is safe to say that the task is hard but it can be done :)

I know that we have a wiki (http://wiki.inkscape.org), but in my opinion it is not structured and presented properly.
The krita wiki (docs.krita.org) had the same problem and they decided to refresh the design and content of the wiki to make it more user freindly and integrate it into krita branding.

I suggest, if currently an inkscape book is not possible, we should atleast refresh or restructure our wiki, may be integrate it with the Learn section of the website
we can include chapters and topics like a proper books format and it can be a goto place of information for newbies and experts
alike. We should also ask the community for making this possible. Later when someone is willing to do a book they can utilise the wiki and write a book based on that rather than starting from scratch.

Thank you

--
Raghavendra Kamath
Illustrator
raghukamath.com

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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Martin Owens-2
In reply to this post by C R
On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
> like.
> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
> of time/hands involved.
>
> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.

Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.

Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
should be a button to join:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs

And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals

I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
"complete" but have something small produced.

Best Regards, Martin Owens


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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Martin Owens-2
In reply to this post by Raghavendra kamath
On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 17:57 +0530, Raghavendra Kamath wrote:
> I know that we have a wiki (http://wiki.inkscape.org), but in my
> opinion it is not structured and presented properly.
> The krita wiki (docs.krita.org) had the same problem and they decided
> to refresh the design and content of the wiki to make it more user
> freindly and integrate it into krita branding.

The wiki is for development, while the website is focused on user
content.

That's not a great dividing line if you're happy to contribute to a
wiki but are intimidated by a website cms.

So see my previous message about the inkscape-docs team project
'manuals' it has a wiki attached which can be used to draft ideas and
organise small sections of work.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Victor Westmann
In reply to this post by Martin Owens-2
Already subscribed to the doc project on Gitlab.

Sorry guys. I know I do am asking for a LOT... but it never hurts to gather opinions from others as well.

Cheers,



--Victor Westmann

2017-04-28 7:14 GMT-07:00 Martin Owens <[hidden email]>:
On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
> like.
> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
> of time/hands involved.
>
> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.

Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.

Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
should be a button to join:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs

And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals

I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
"complete" but have something small produced.

Best Regards, Martin Owens



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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Maren Hachmann
In reply to this post by Martin Owens-2
Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
might be later on.

Maren

> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>> like.
>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>
>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>
>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>
>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>> should be a button to join:
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>
>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>
>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>
>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>
>


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Re: [Inkscape-docs] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Martin Owens-2
On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>
> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way.
> There
> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as
> it
> might be later on.

Agreed.

I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.

Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals
Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Re: [Inkscape-docs] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Maren Hachmann
Great :)

I think, in this context, it makes sense to also link to the thread on
the translators mailing list, where many of us have already been
discussing the issue, and started to investigate options.

https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-translator/thread/CAPOH7%3DZn3sWhZ%3D1DDB-1FUp%2BQUZzrLmyy7iOFiL1VcfY0maG9g%40mail.gmail.com/#msg35807172

Victor (who initiated the thread) has already written about his findings
about Sphinx there, and he also linked to a list on github, where
different documentation systems are listed (sorry, your latest email is
still on my todo list, Victor).

Elisa has mentioned the Booktype instance of flossmanualsfr, as far as I
remember.

Regards,
 Maren

Am 29.04.2017 um 00:17 schrieb Martin Owens:

> On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>
>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way.
>> There
>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as
>> it
>> might be later on.
>
> Agreed.
>
> I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.
>
> Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals
> Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>


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Re: [Inkscape-docs] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

C R
I have requested access to the gitlab repo. Once allowed, I'll drop a
Scribus document in there with a cover, and the master pages with some
initial styling for the document. I'll also do a README file with an
initial layout/contents proposal based on some of the ideas here.

To my mind, the most useful thing would be getting an inkscape
quick-start guide going as the preface. This way users can start
making use of the document right away.

We may also want to publish each section of the book as a pdf as we go
along, so users don't have to clone our repos just to get the
information. :)

Contributors should also be aware that it's not okay to copy/paste
content from blogs, tutorials, etc. For this document, everything must
be re-written from scratch, and all screen captures, graphics etc.
must be of our own making and cc0 (public domain). Anyone not
interested in contributing 100% public domain content, should not
contribute to this project.

-C



On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Maren Hachmann
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Great :)
>
> I think, in this context, it makes sense to also link to the thread on
> the translators mailing list, where many of us have already been
> discussing the issue, and started to investigate options.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-translator/thread/CAPOH7%3DZn3sWhZ%3D1DDB-1FUp%2BQUZzrLmyy7iOFiL1VcfY0maG9g%40mail.gmail.com/#msg35807172
>
> Victor (who initiated the thread) has already written about his findings
> about Sphinx there, and he also linked to a list on github, where
> different documentation systems are listed (sorry, your latest email is
> still on my todo list, Victor).
>
> Elisa has mentioned the Booktype instance of flossmanualsfr, as far as I
> remember.
>
> Regards,
>  Maren
>
> Am 29.04.2017 um 00:17 schrieb Martin Owens:
>> On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
>>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>>
>>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way.
>>> There
>>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as
>>> it
>>> might be later on.
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>> I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.
>>
>> Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals
>> Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs
>>
>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

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Re: [Inkscape-docs] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Maren Hachmann
Am 29.04.2017 um 10:05 schrieb C R:

> I have requested access to the gitlab repo. Once allowed, I'll drop a
> Scribus document in there with a cover, and the master pages with some
> initial styling for the document. I'll also do a README file with an
> initial layout/contents proposal based on some of the ideas here.
>
> To my mind, the most useful thing would be getting an inkscape
> quick-start guide going as the preface. This way users can start
> making use of the document right away.
>
> We may also want to publish each section of the book as a pdf as we go
> along, so users don't have to clone our repos just to get the
> information. :)
>
> Contributors should also be aware that it's not okay to copy/paste
> content from blogs, tutorials, etc. For this document, everything must
> be re-written from scratch, and all screen captures, graphics etc.
> must be of our own making and cc0 (public domain). Anyone not
> interested in contributing 100% public domain content, should not
> contribute to this project.

- For a printable book, this sounds like a good idea :D

For a more 'scientific' manual, I think it's not suitable to do this in
Scribus, and that we should turn to a proven documentation software.

I've heard that Scribus performance drops dramatically with the number
of pages. How would you go about translatating the book?

I strongly disagree with CC0 - I would only contribute to something that
where attribution and copyleft are honored. It's fine to pull content
from properly licenced sources, imho, too. There are quick start guides
with good licences - this would make the process a lot faster, if it
wouldn't need to be written from scratch, but only modified. So yeah,
count me out :)

Maren

> -C
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Maren Hachmann
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Great :)
>>
>> I think, in this context, it makes sense to also link to the thread on
>> the translators mailing list, where many of us have already been
>> discussing the issue, and started to investigate options.
>>
>> https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-translator/thread/CAPOH7%3DZn3sWhZ%3D1DDB-1FUp%2BQUZzrLmyy7iOFiL1VcfY0maG9g%40mail.gmail.com/#msg35807172
>>
>> Victor (who initiated the thread) has already written about his findings
>> about Sphinx there, and he also linked to a list on github, where
>> different documentation systems are listed (sorry, your latest email is
>> still on my todo list, Victor).
>>
>> Elisa has mentioned the Booktype instance of flossmanualsfr, as far as I
>> remember.
>>
>> Regards,
>>  Maren
>>
>> Am 29.04.2017 um 00:17 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>> On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
>>>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>>>
>>>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way.
>>>> There
>>>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as
>>>> it
>>>> might be later on.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.
>>>
>>> Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals
>>> Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs
>>>
>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>
>>
>>
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>


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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Brynn
In reply to this post by Maren Hachmann
I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here.  But wouldn't it make more sense to put
any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed,
user-focused, step by step manual?  Rather than starting from scratch on a whole
different kind of project?

There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials.
It's not a bad thing.  I just think this kind of project is better suited for a
single author, or maybe a small team.  And I think the project needs the manual
much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well I
can't find a link to the French version.  Here's a link to whatever has been
translated already:
https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it!
By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help
the translators?

And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published?  A big obstacle to
writing any book is getting it published.  You almost have to have an invitation
from a publisher to be certain a book will get published.  Or publish it
yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Just my opinion  :-)

brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Maren Hachmann
Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
(targeting the moon)

Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?

The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
might be later on.

Maren

> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>> like.
>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>
>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>
>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>
>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>> should be a button to join:
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>
>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>
>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>
>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>
>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>> _______________________________________________
>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>
>


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Re: [Inkscape-docs] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

C R
In reply to this post by Maren Hachmann



> Contributors should also be aware that it's not okay to copy/paste
> content from blogs, tutorials, etc. For this document, everything must
> be re-written from scratch, and all screen captures, graphics etc.
> must be of our own making and cc0 (public domain). Anyone not
> interested in contributing 100% public domain content, should not
> contribute to this project.

- For a printable book, this sounds like a good idea :D

For a more 'scientific' manual, I think it's not suitable to do this in
Scribus, and that we should turn to a proven documentation software.

I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's FLOSS.

Scribus can export to lots of different digital formats as well.

I've heard that Scribus performance drops dramatically with the number
of pages. How would you go about translatating the book?

I would have translators do it in Scribus.


I strongly disagree with CC0 - I would only contribute to something that
where attribution and copyleft are honored.

Why does content in an inkscape manual need attribution? Contents are more useful if cc0.


It's fine to pull content
from properly licenced sources, imho, too.

I disagree. This would create a tangle of licenses and attribution requirements that will make the contents less usable in/by other projects. We should remove the burden of attribution where possible.


There are quick start guides
with good licences - this would make the process a lot faster, if it
wouldn't need to be written from scratch, but only modified. So yeah,
count me out :)

Maren

> -C
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 12:01 AM, Maren Hachmann
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Great :)
>>
>> I think, in this context, it makes sense to also link to the thread on
>> the translators mailing list, where many of us have already been
>> discussing the issue, and started to investigate options.
>>
>> https://sourceforge.net/p/inkscape/mailman/inkscape-translator/thread/CAPOH7%3DZn3sWhZ%3D1DDB-1FUp%2BQUZzrLmyy7iOFiL1VcfY0maG9g%40mail.gmail.com/#msg35807172
>>
>> Victor (who initiated the thread) has already written about his findings
>> about Sphinx there, and he also linked to a list on github, where
>> different documentation systems are listed (sorry, your latest email is
>> still on my todo list, Victor).
>>
>> Elisa has mentioned the Booktype instance of flossmanualsfr, as far as I
>> remember.
>>
>> Regards,
>>  Maren
>>
>> Am 29.04.2017 um 00:17 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>> On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 00:01 +0200, Maren Hachmann wrote:
>>>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>>>
>>>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way.
>>>> There
>>>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as
>>>> it
>>>> might be later on.
>>>
>>> Agreed.
>>>
>>> I've moved everything around and re-added the members to the group.
>>>
>>> Project is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs/manuals
>>> Group is now: https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inkscape-docs
>>>
>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Inkscape-docs] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Martin Owens-2
> It's fine to pull content
> from properly licenced sources, imho, too.
>
> I disagree. This would create a tangle of licenses and attribution
> requirements that will make the contents less usable in/by other
> projects. We should remove the burden of attribution where possible.

It doesn't have to be a tangle if you set out the rules from the start.
Copyleft exists to protect projects and attribution exists to give
authors credit for their hard work.

A CC-BY-SA project should be doable. But I'm hoping to examples of
situations where educational materials were harmed by choosing an
attribution style license.

(also, if it's in a repository, the "who wrote what" becomes a bit
easier)

As for pulling in content from outside. Ask. Firstly ask if the author
would like their work included, then ask if they could relicense their
work to whatever is needed and then finally if the other two were met
with enthusiasm, ask them to join the team. :-)

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Re: [Inkscape-docs] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

C R
I guess I don't understand why this project needs protecting. It's a
manual for Inkscape. Do we really need "attribution" for screen
captures and UI graphics?
I also don't understand why people need perpetual credit for
contributions, graphics or otherwise.

But far be it from me to impose my own project vision on this
community effort. I'll leave it to others to handle it.

-C

On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Martin Owens <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> It's fine to pull content
>> from properly licenced sources, imho, too.
>>
>> I disagree. This would create a tangle of licenses and attribution
>> requirements that will make the contents less usable in/by other
>> projects. We should remove the burden of attribution where possible.
>
> It doesn't have to be a tangle if you set out the rules from the start.
> Copyleft exists to protect projects and attribution exists to give
> authors credit for their hard work.
>
> A CC-BY-SA project should be doable. But I'm hoping to examples of
> situations where educational materials were harmed by choosing an
> attribution style license.
>
> (also, if it's in a repository, the "who wrote what" becomes a bit
> easier)
>
> As for pulling in content from outside. Ask. Firstly ask if the author
> would like their work included, then ask if they could relicense their
> work to whatever is needed and then finally if the other two were met
> with enthusiasm, ask them to join the team. :-)
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

C R
In reply to this post by Brynn
> I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here.  But wouldn't it make more sense to put
> any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed,
> user-focused, step by step manual?  Rather than starting from scratch on a whole
> different kind of project?

Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.

> There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials.
> It's not a bad thing.  I just think this kind of project is better suited for a
> single author, or maybe a small team.  And I think the project needs the manual
> much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree
with finishing what we already have before starting something new.


> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well
> can't find a link to the French version.  Here's a link to whatever has been
> translated already:
> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this
finished. So +1 for the suggestion.

> Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it!
> By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help
> the translators?

I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.

> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published?  A big obstacle to
> writing any book is getting it published.  You almost have to have an invitation
> from a publisher to be certain a book will get published.  Or publish it
> yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened
in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell
printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by
members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is
for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is
attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.

-C

>
> Just my opinion  :-)
>
> brynn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maren Hachmann
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
> To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
> (targeting the moon)
>
> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>
> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
> might be later on.
>
> Maren
>
>> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>>> like.
>>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>>
>>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>>> should be a button to join:
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>>
>>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>>
>>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>>
>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>
>
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Re: [Inkscape-docs] Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Martin Owens-2
In reply to this post by Brynn
On Sat, 2017-04-29 at 07:19 -0600, brynn wrote:
> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation
> of...well I 
> can't find a link to the French version.  Here's a link to whatever
> has been 
> translated already: 
> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

No, that's not licensed. We can't and shouldn't use it until it has a
known and open license.

Unfortunately there are going to be lots of good resources that we just
can't use.

But you can use "the idea" of the content. So having similar sections
and covering similar ground.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Miguel Lopez
In reply to this post by C R
I want to put out something regarding documentations. What about
workarounds to Inkscape limitations as part of the documentation? Some
users really need some answers to the limitation of Inkscape. There's
another idea I have in mind. For making tutorials shorter, we can use
existing tutorials of our own and linking to them as part of advanced
section of Inkscape tutorials. Advanced users should already know the
program in and out to know how to apply them for advanced rendering.
Some of those might need workarounds though.

My only issue with those workaround is the amount of time they require,
and the tax on limited resources. Otherwise, if those weren't a issue,
they would be fantastic though they're still not a replacement to what
other programs has to offer. I can offer making workaround docs if
anyone wants me to show how to work around Inkscape limits.

For example :

1) Gradient Stroke -

1a) Method 1 (If profile line aren't needed) - Duplicate and then adjust
stroke width, and then convert to path. Every strokes must be converted
to path. You copy and paste the path that is going to get removed by
applying the path difference. You repeat the process, and then you get
every individual stroke which can be colored as however you please.

1b) Method 2 (If profile line is needed) You apply the same thing to the
above, but you are not going to use stroke width. Instead, you are going
to use power stroke to emulate profile line with gradient stroke.

2) Realistic Rendering of convulated objects like a shoe.

2a) This involves series of clipping, blurring, gradient mesh and
brushing. Right now, Inkscape users can only use gradient mesh for basic
overall lighting, and some bit of coloring using filtering since
gradient mesh is underdeveloped in Inkscape. You apply blur to brushes
in order to emulate shading. Doing this a lot can give very sastifying
result within Inkscape, but also drains so much of rendering speed
within Inkscape even with a powerful computer. But results are literally
comparable to raster programs, and in some way even better because well,
it's scalable.

3) The lack of warp tool for textures workaround

3a) As of now, we do have lattice tool, and the tweak liquifying tool.
Those two can be used as a workaround to the lack of warp tool. Lattice
deformation tool should had the option of allowing users to tweak the
tangency line though instead of the tangency line being tangent to the
horizontal and vertical direction. This is not something that can have a
decent workaround since it requires duplicating so many objects and then
tweaking it would be a major pain. For complicated textures, it can't be
done within Inkscape unless you have a infinite amount of time and
resource, and as we all know that's not possible.

4) For people who have trouble with tangency snapping (I'm one of
those), and no that snapping option does not help one bit.

4a) The obvious workaround involves using the show handles. You can make
tangent line utilizing the result of the show handles LPE. Also, this
enables users to be able to create perpendicular, and tangent spiro path.

5)  The lack of ease regarding manipulating mask/clip

5a) The workaround to this is well, using the clone as the
masking/clipping source while retaining the original for
clipping/masking at another location. This workaround works because you
can always manipulate the source object, and hide it. It is almost
exactly like as if you were manipulating transparency mask within Krita
or Photoshop or GIMP. After testing it, it's beautiful really when you
change between layer/group.

6) PDF export limitation

6a) The obvious workaround here is well, export to png and then convert
to pdf. Of course, some rasterization would be needed if one has to
convert to pdf, literally at times.

I think those are the 6 issues that could be addressed via docs tutorial
for those who are desperate to find a solution to those. They can always
resort to Krita for those (except 6 because pdf export is not planned),
but that's not a option if they have to create a vector render. If
there's anything I miss regarding workarounds, lemme know. I can
probably add more workarounds if I miss anything as I know the program
in and out from a user perspective.


On 4/29/2017 11:54 AM, C R wrote:

>> I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here.  But wouldn't it make more sense to put
>> any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed,
>> user-focused, step by step manual?  Rather than starting from scratch on a whole
>> different kind of project?
> Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
>
>> There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials.
>> It's not a bad thing.  I just think this kind of project is better suited for a
>> single author, or maybe a small team.  And I think the project needs the manual
>> much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
> I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree
> with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
>
>
>> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well
>> can't find a link to the French version.  Here's a link to whatever has been
>> translated already:
>> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
> I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this
> finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
>
>> Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it!
>> By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help
>> the translators?
> I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
>
>> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published?  A big obstacle to
>> writing any book is getting it published.  You almost have to have an invitation
>> from a publisher to be certain a book will get published.  Or publish it
>> yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened
> in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell
> printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by
> members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is
> for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is
> attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
>
> -C
>
>> Just my opinion  :-)
>>
>> brynn
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Maren Hachmann
>> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
>> To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
>> (targeting the moon)
>>
>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>
>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
>> might be later on.
>>
>> Maren
>>
>>> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>>>> like.
>>>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>>>> should be a button to join:
>>>>
>>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>>>
>>>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>>>
>>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>>>
>>>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>>>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>>>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>
>>
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>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

C R
Sure, I'm all for having a work-around section.
We can patch it later when problems are fixed so the workarounds are
no longer required.

Of particular use might be workflow suggestions for print and web.
The issue is, even long time users of Inkscape might be doing things
in an inefficient way.

It would probably be worth including most of the above in a "best
practices" section.

-C


On Sat, Apr 29, 2017 at 6:39 PM, Miguel Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I want to put out something regarding documentations. What about
> workarounds to Inkscape limitations as part of the documentation? Some
> users really need some answers to the limitation of Inkscape. There's
> another idea I have in mind. For making tutorials shorter, we can use
> existing tutorials of our own and linking to them as part of advanced
> section of Inkscape tutorials. Advanced users should already know the
> program in and out to know how to apply them for advanced rendering.
> Some of those might need workarounds though.
>
> My only issue with those workaround is the amount of time they require,
> and the tax on limited resources. Otherwise, if those weren't a issue,
> they would be fantastic though they're still not a replacement to what
> other programs has to offer. I can offer making workaround docs if
> anyone wants me to show how to work around Inkscape limits.
>
> For example :
>
> 1) Gradient Stroke -
>
> 1a) Method 1 (If profile line aren't needed) - Duplicate and then adjust
> stroke width, and then convert to path. Every strokes must be converted
> to path. You copy and paste the path that is going to get removed by
> applying the path difference. You repeat the process, and then you get
> every individual stroke which can be colored as however you please.
>
> 1b) Method 2 (If profile line is needed) You apply the same thing to the
> above, but you are not going to use stroke width. Instead, you are going
> to use power stroke to emulate profile line with gradient stroke.
>
> 2) Realistic Rendering of convulated objects like a shoe.
>
> 2a) This involves series of clipping, blurring, gradient mesh and
> brushing. Right now, Inkscape users can only use gradient mesh for basic
> overall lighting, and some bit of coloring using filtering since
> gradient mesh is underdeveloped in Inkscape. You apply blur to brushes
> in order to emulate shading. Doing this a lot can give very sastifying
> result within Inkscape, but also drains so much of rendering speed
> within Inkscape even with a powerful computer. But results are literally
> comparable to raster programs, and in some way even better because well,
> it's scalable.
>
> 3) The lack of warp tool for textures workaround
>
> 3a) As of now, we do have lattice tool, and the tweak liquifying tool.
> Those two can be used as a workaround to the lack of warp tool. Lattice
> deformation tool should had the option of allowing users to tweak the
> tangency line though instead of the tangency line being tangent to the
> horizontal and vertical direction. This is not something that can have a
> decent workaround since it requires duplicating so many objects and then
> tweaking it would be a major pain. For complicated textures, it can't be
> done within Inkscape unless you have a infinite amount of time and
> resource, and as we all know that's not possible.
>
> 4) For people who have trouble with tangency snapping (I'm one of
> those), and no that snapping option does not help one bit.
>
> 4a) The obvious workaround involves using the show handles. You can make
> tangent line utilizing the result of the show handles LPE. Also, this
> enables users to be able to create perpendicular, and tangent spiro path.
>
> 5)  The lack of ease regarding manipulating mask/clip
>
> 5a) The workaround to this is well, using the clone as the
> masking/clipping source while retaining the original for
> clipping/masking at another location. This workaround works because you
> can always manipulate the source object, and hide it. It is almost
> exactly like as if you were manipulating transparency mask within Krita
> or Photoshop or GIMP. After testing it, it's beautiful really when you
> change between layer/group.
>
> 6) PDF export limitation
>
> 6a) The obvious workaround here is well, export to png and then convert
> to pdf. Of course, some rasterization would be needed if one has to
> convert to pdf, literally at times.
>
> I think those are the 6 issues that could be addressed via docs tutorial
> for those who are desperate to find a solution to those. They can always
> resort to Krita for those (except 6 because pdf export is not planned),
> but that's not a option if they have to create a vector render. If
> there's anything I miss regarding workarounds, lemme know. I can
> probably add more workarounds if I miss anything as I know the program
> in and out from a user perspective.
>
>
> On 4/29/2017 11:54 AM, C R wrote:
>>> I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here.  But wouldn't it make more sense to put
>>> any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly needed,
>>> user-focused, step by step manual?  Rather than starting from scratch on a whole
>>> different kind of project?
>> Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.
>>
>>> There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials.
>>> It's not a bad thing.  I just think this kind of project is better suited for a
>>> single author, or maybe a small team.  And I think the project needs the manual
>>> much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.
>> I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree
>> with finishing what we already have before starting something new.
>>
>>
>>> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well
>>> can't find a link to the French version.  Here's a link to whatever has been
>>> translated already:
>>> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/
>> I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this
>> finished. So +1 for the suggestion.
>>
>>> Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish it!
>>> By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help
>>> the translators?
>> I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.
>>
>>> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published?  A big obstacle to
>>> writing any book is getting it published.  You almost have to have an invitation
>>> from a publisher to be certain a book will get published.  Or publish it
>>> yourself, which is not easy eitiher.
>> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened
>> in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell
>> printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by
>> members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is
>> for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is
>> attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.
>>
>> -C
>>
>>> Just my opinion  :-)
>>>
>>> brynn
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Maren Hachmann
>>> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
>>> To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
>>> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
>>> (targeting the moon)
>>>
>>> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>>>
>>> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
>>> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
>>> might be later on.
>>>
>>> Maren
>>>
>>>> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>>>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>>>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>>>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>>>>> like.
>>>>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>>>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>>>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>>>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>>>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>>>>> should be a button to join:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>>>>
>>>>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>>>>
>>>>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>>>>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>>>>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>

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Re: Any chance we can make some docs material? (targeting the moon)

Brynn
In reply to this post by C R
>> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published? .....

> Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways,....

Yes, I understand that.  But I thought Victor was talking about a hardback book,
like at the link he provided.  That kind of book is hard to get published,
unless you have some prior agreement with a publisher.  At least that's my
understanding.


Somewhere in this thread was some discussion about licensing.  If this is to be
a hardback book (old fashioned way of publishing) *to me* it makes more sense to
carry a copyright.  As far as I understand, publishers take a cut of sales.  And
if it's a public domain content, there wouldn't be many sales.  It seems like it
would make it even harder to find a publisher.

I don't know, maybe I'm old and old fashioned.  But the FLOSS manual, on the
other hand, certainly should be either public domain, or CC-BY-NC-SA might be
better.  Whatever it needs to have, to allow the community to edit.


I'm not sure what has the translators on pause.  But that seems to be the
"blocker" at the moment.  That's why I was asking if there was anything we
non-translators can do to help.  I wish I knew anyone I could ask to help, but I
sure don't.

This is probably a bad idea.  But I'm trying to think outside the box.  What if
I (or other non-French-speaker) took one of the French pages, and sent it
through the public google and/or bing translators.  I know those are far from
perfect.  (Sooooo far!)  But since I know Inkscape, it seems like it would give
me enough of a clue what it's about, to be able to write it properly in English.

Then maybe the translators can proof read it, to make sure something important
wasn't missed?  Proof reading would seem to be much less time-consuming for
them.

Would that work??

All best,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: C R
Sent: Saturday, April 29, 2017 9:54 AM
To: brynn
Cc: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List ; Maren Hachmann ; Victor Westmann
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
(targeting the moon)

> I don't mean to slow anyone's roll here.  But wouldn't it make more sense to
> put
> any kind of energy towards documentation into the much discussed, direly
> needed,
> user-focused, step by step manual?  Rather than starting from scratch on a
> whole
> different kind of project?

Yea, this actually makes a lot of sense as a first step.

> There are many books out there already, which amount to a series of tutorials.
> It's not a bad thing.  I just think this kind of project is better suited for
> a
> single author, or maybe a small team.  And I think the project needs the
> manual
> much, more more than the community needs another book of tutorials.

I agree. I think the book could be a lot of things in one. But I agree
with finishing what we already have before starting something new.


> As far as I understand, all that's needed is an English translation of...well
> can't find a link to the French version.  Here's a link to whatever has been
> translated already:
> https://fr.flossmanuals.net/start-with-inkscape/introduction/

I can't help with translation, unfortunately. But I'd like to see this
finished. So +1 for the suggestion.

> Once we have the translation, we'll be off and running to update and finish
> it!
> By the way, is there anything those of us who can't translate, can do, to help
> the translators?

I volunteer to help this effort in what ways are needed.

> And won't such a new book of tutorials have to be published?  A big obstacle
> to
> writing any book is getting it published.  You almost have to have an
> invitation
> from a publisher to be certain a book will get published.  Or publish it
> yourself, which is not easy eitiher.

Books done in Scribus can be "published" in a variety of ways, opened
in browsers, laptops, eReaders, or just printed out. We could sell
printed copies along with other Inkscape stuff. Maybe copies signed by
members of the project would be kinda cool. No idea what the market is
for it, but the idea that we could do all of these at once is
attractive, and why I recommend Scribus.

-C

>
> Just my opinion  :-)
>
> brynn
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maren Hachmann
> Sent: Friday, April 28, 2017 4:01 PM
> To: Inkscape-Docs ; Inkscape Devel List
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Any chance we can make some docs material?
> (targeting the moon)
>
> Would it make sense to use gitlab's new subgroups feature for this?
>
> The inkscape-docs team could be a sub-team of Inkscape, that way. There
> are only 4 members as of now, so changing wouldn't be so difficult as it
> might be later on.
>
> Maren
>
>> Am 28.04.2017 um 16:14 schrieb Martin Owens:
>>> On Fri, 2017-04-28 at 12:39 +0100, C R wrote:
>>>> I'd love to quit my job and just do docs. :) Unfortunately, that's
>>>> what it would probably take to get docs going to the extent we'd
>>>> like.
>>>> It's been discussed before, but never gone anywhere because of lack
>>>> of time/hands involved.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, we should use Scribus to do it. In fact, it should probably be a
>>>> github project to attract contributors. This way we can patch what
>>>> needs to be patched when stuff changes in subsequent releases.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you have a solid step one Chris.
>>>
>>> Here's the inkscape-docs group on gitlab, EVERYONE should join, there
>>> should be a button to join:
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape-docs
>>>
>>> And here's the new book/manual/docs project where files can be put:
>>>
>>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/manuals
>>>
>>> I recommend using the wiki attached to the project to plan the
>>> adventure slowly. Add a bit at a time and don't rush to have something
>>> "complete" but have something small produced.
>>>
>>> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel 


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