Fw: Visitor analytics

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Fw: Visitor analytics

Brynn
Resending this.  Apparently I used the wrong email address to send this from, so
it didn't go to the list.

-----Original Message-----
From: brynn
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 12:25 PM
To: Martin Owens ; Ryan Gorley ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Visitor analytics

What I like the best about it (Piwik/Matomo) is that it seems to only report on
what I refer to as human visitors.  Personally I find that much more useful.
(Although I could imagine that some sites (or webmasters, owners) might be more
interested in aalllll the traffic.)

So that's the sandcats.io script that I see in Firefox's No Script?  So already,
visitors haven't been notified about the site using this tracking?

So the login via github has to do with sandstorm, from what I can tell?  Because
I just log in on the page where I installed it, on my site.

brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Owens
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 2:12 AM
To: brynn ; Ryan Gorley ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Visitor analytics

On Sun, 2018-02-25 at 01:24 -0700, brynn wrote:
> Whatever a Piwik "sandcat sandstorm grain" is, it's probably very
> different from
> what I'm using on my site.

That's just the way it's deployed. It's easier to do that then to set
it up raw although it comes with it's own oddness hence the login
restrictions.

The graphs even now are interesting.

Martin,


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Re: Fw: Visitor analytics

doctormo
On Tue, 2018-02-27 at 10:29 -0700, brynn wrote:
> Resending this.  Apparently I used the wrong email address to send
> this from, so  it didn't go to the list.

Thanks for correcting the address. I think people have been out of the
loop on this development.

I made a sandstorm based Piwik analytics service and have asked the
website to put information about vistors there.

> So that's the sandcats.io script that I see in Firefox's No
> Script?  So already, visitors haven't been notified about the site
> using this tracking?

They're not being tracked as users, it's just for the arrigates.
Although tightening the configuration will be a good thing to make
sure. If we go with this solution, I plan on NOT using the django piwik
app which tracks usernames and a bunch of other things.  

> So the login via github has to do with sandstorm, from what I can
> tell?  Because I just log in on the page where I installed it, on my
> site.

Yes, this is a sandstorm thing, it replaces the login for any service
you set up. A bit silly IMO, but hey ho, it was easy to get running.

Here's a picture of what we're currently getting:


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Re: Fw: Visitor analytics

Inkscape - Dev mailing list
Just seeing this page is so insightful. Any chance I can get access to
look at these more closely?


Ryan Gorley
Founder + Creative Director

https://dijt.co
1.801.999.1530 ×101
1.801.898.7926

On 02/27/2018 10:44 AM, Martin Owens wrote:

> On Tue, 2018-02-27 at 10:29 -0700, brynn wrote:
>> Resending this.  Apparently I used the wrong email address to send
>> this from, so  it didn't go to the list.
> Thanks for correcting the address. I think people have been out of the
> loop on this development.
>
> I made a sandstorm based Piwik analytics service and have asked the
> website to put information about vistors there.
>
>> So that's the sandcats.io script that I see in Firefox's No
>> Script?  So already, visitors haven't been notified about the site
>> using this tracking?
> They're not being tracked as users, it's just for the arrigates.
> Although tightening the configuration will be a good thing to make
> sure. If we go with this solution, I plan on NOT using the django piwik
> app which tracks usernames and a bunch of other things.  
>
>> So the login via github has to do with sandstorm, from what I can
>> tell?  Because I just log in on the page where I installed it, on my
>> site.
> Yes, this is a sandstorm thing, it replaces the login for any service
> you set up. A bit silly IMO, but hey ho, it was easy to get running.
>
> Here's a picture of what we're currently getting:
>


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Re: Visitor analytics

Brynn
In reply to this post by doctormo
Ok, I looked up "arrigates" in all the places I know to learn computer terms.
No luck.

DDG defaults to arrogates, which is not a very flattering claim to be making, if
we're talking about not arrogating the info.

But when I forced DDG to search "arrigates", then it defaulted to aggregates.
Aggregates /could/ fit in your comments.

A little help with what you're collecting?

I see the image showing your results.  They look very familiar as part of
Piwik/Matomo.  Just general info, and no IP addresses.  But I don't see how
that's just the basic Piwik installation (as you said before - or I thought you
did)  Not unless there are just some options that I've never found before?

Oh ok, I think I see what you did.  You just don't have those particular
features with IP addresses enabled (the widgets).  (such as Real Time Visits) So
the info could be collected, if you enabled those features, right?  If you
opened the Visitor Log, you would see the individual visitors.  You're just not
going to open it, right?

Well this goes back to my original comments.  Collecting the info isn't bad, by
itself.  It comes down to the intentions of the people collecting the info.  And
as long as we trust ourselves, there's no problem.

All best,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Owens
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 10:44 AM
To: brynn ; Inkscape-Devel ; Ryan Gorley
Subject: Re: Fw: [Inkscape-devel] Visitor analytics

On Tue, 2018-02-27 at 10:29 -0700, brynn wrote:
> Resending this.  Apparently I used the wrong email address to send
> this from, so  it didn't go to the list.

Thanks for correcting the address. I think people have been out of the
loop on this development.

I made a sandstorm based Piwik analytics service and have asked the
website to put information about vistors there.

> So that's the sandcats.io script that I see in Firefox's No
> Script?  So already, visitors haven't been notified about the site
> using this tracking?

They're not being tracked as users, it's just for the arrigates.
Although tightening the configuration will be a good thing to make
sure. If we go with this solution, I plan on NOT using the django piwik
app which tracks usernames and a bunch of other things.

> So the login via github has to do with sandstorm, from what I can
> tell?  Because I just log in on the page where I installed it, on my
> site.

Yes, this is a sandstorm thing, it replaces the login for any service
you set up. A bit silly IMO, but hey ho, it was easy to get running.

Here's a picture of what we're currently getting:


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Re: Visitor analytics

Eduard Braun
Am 28.02.2018 um 00:52 schrieb brynn:
> Well this goes back to my original comments.  Collecting the info
> isn't bad, by itself.  It comes down to the intentions of the people
> collecting the info.  And as long as we trust ourselves, there's no
> problem.

Only a quick comment as you've said that before and I *strongly* disagree:
Real privacy/security is not about trust - it's about guaranteeing that
whatever information we collect can not be misused, even if it falls
into the wrong hands.

The kind of information mentioned so far can easily be collected in
anonymized form and I hope we can give our visitors the guarantee no
identifying information will ever be stored (or transmitted).

I'd favour a solution that does not involve third-party servers (what
Martin set up seems to depend on it) - then again it makes it easier for
people to block it ;-)
(On that note you might also want to consider statistics usually only
represent those people who do not care about privacy and therefore will
likely not catch most of the tech-savvy folks which makes up a large
group of Inkscape community).

Best Regards,
Eduard

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Re: Visitor analytics

doctormo
On Wed, 2018-02-28 at 01:23 +0100, Eduard Braun wrote:

> Am 28.02.2018 um 00:52 schrieb brynn:
> >
> > Well this goes back to my original comments.  Collecting the info 
> > isn't bad, by itself.  It comes down to the intentions of the
> > people 
> > collecting the info.  And as long as we trust ourselves, there's
> > no 
> > problem.
> Only a quick comment as you've said that before and I *strongly*
> disagree:
> Real privacy/security is not about trust - it's about guaranteeing
> that 
> whatever information we collect can not be misused, even if it falls 
> into the wrong hands.
>
> The kind of information mentioned so far can easily be collected in 
> anonymized form and I hope we can give our visitors the guarantee no 
> identifying information will ever be stored (or transmitted).
>
> I'd favour a solution that does not involve third-party servers
> (what 
> Martin set up seems to depend on it) - then again it makes it easier
> for 
> people to block it ;-)
> (On that note you might also want to consider statistics usually
> only 
> represent those people who do not care about privacy and therefore
> will 
> likely not catch most of the tech-savvy folks which makes up a large 
> group of Inkscape community).

No the service is ours, our machine, our databases. I think only the
dns is from sandstorm

Martin,

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Re: Visitor analytics

Brynn
In reply to this post by Eduard Braun
>> Well this goes back to my original comments.  Collecting the info isn't bad,
>> by itself.  It comes down to the intentions of the people collecting the
>> info.  And as long as we trust ourselves, there's no problem.

> Only a quick comment as you've said that before and I *strongly* disagree:
Real privacy/security is not about trust - it's about guaranteeing that
whatever information we collect can not be misused, even if it falls
into the wrong hands.

I think if the information falls into the wrong hands, then our trust was
misplaced, and we did not protect the info well enough.  If a group takes on
such a trust, then it better be protecting the information appropriately.

Maybe there is some product which only can collect info which is not traced to
the IP address.  Or if not now, I suspect there will be pretty soon.  But for
now, I'm not sure if there is any kind of analytics which doesn't trace to the
IP address.

That gives us the choice of having some analytics, and being trust-worthy and
taking good care of that info (including deleting the parts we don't need).  Or
just not having any analytics.

At least that's how I see it.  If there is some analytics app which only gives
non-personally identifying info, then that's what we should use.  I just don't
know if there is any such program.

  > (On that note you might also want to consider statistics usually only
represent those people who do not care about privacy and therefore will
likely not catch most of the tech-savvy folks which makes up a large
group of Inkscape community).

Ah yes, I am aware that I'm not getting statistics on people who don't want to
be tracked and are aware how to avoid it.   It's interesting, when you think of
the Inkscape community, you're thinking mostly of developers.  But the Inkscape
users we see in forums, most are not very tech savvy.  Rather than not caring
about privacy and security, often they don't know anything about it.  (More than
once or twice I've  referred people to security forums.)

All best,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Eduard Braun
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 5:23 PM
To: brynn ; Martin Owens ; Inkscape-Devel ; Ryan Gorley
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Visitor analytics

Am 28.02.2018 um 00:52 schrieb brynn:
> Well this goes back to my original comments.  Collecting the info isn't bad,
> by itself.  It comes down to the intentions of the people collecting the info.
> And as long as we trust ourselves, there's no problem.

Only a quick comment as you've said that before and I *strongly* disagree:
Real privacy/security is not about trust - it's about guaranteeing that
whatever information we collect can not be misused, even if it falls
into the wrong hands.

The kind of information mentioned so far can easily be collected in
anonymized form and I hope we can give our visitors the guarantee no
identifying information will ever be stored (or transmitted).

I'd favour a solution that does not involve third-party servers (what
Martin set up seems to depend on it) - then again it makes it easier for
people to block it ;-)
(On that note you might also want to consider statistics usually only
represent those people who do not care about privacy and therefore will
likely not catch most of the tech-savvy folks which makes up a large
group of Inkscape community).

Best Regards,
Eduard


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Re: Visitor analytics

doctormo
Brynn,

Can I direct your attention to a page I just found documenting the
features for privacy: https://matomo.org/docs/privacy/

This should allow us to annoymise the IP Addresses as well as a fair
few other things.

One interesting metric we picked out from the stats, social media (see
image)

So far it seems to say that Youtube is VERY important to inkscape.
Mostly to windows users. Mac users are most likely to use GitHub and
Reddit while Linux users are fairly spread out except for Vkontakte
(which is a russian social media site)

Some other interesting parts, wikipedia and gimp provide the greatest
number of cross links (we should be providing links to gimp from our
home page IMO)

Forum wise, inkscapeforum.com provides the most links, but
also forums.cnetfrance.fr and forum.inkscapecommunity.com, mac-
forums.com, gimpforums.com, forums.adobe.com, forums.sketchup.com even
forums.autodesk.com

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Tue, 2018-02-27 at 22:29 -0700, brynn wrote:

> >
> > >
> > > Well this goes back to my original comments.  Collecting the info
> > > isn't bad, 
> > > by itself.  It comes down to the intentions of the people
> > > collecting the 
> > > info.  And as long as we trust ourselves, there's no problem.
> >
> > Only a quick comment as you've said that before and I *strongly*
> > disagree:
> Real privacy/security is not about trust - it's about guaranteeing
> that
> whatever information we collect can not be misused, even if it falls
> into the wrong hands.
>
> I think if the information falls into the wrong hands, then our trust
> was 
> misplaced, and we did not protect the info well enough.  If a group
> takes on 
> such a trust, then it better be protecting the information
> appropriately.
>
> Maybe there is some product which only can collect info which is not
> traced to 
> the IP address.  Or if not now, I suspect there will be pretty
> soon.  But for 
> now, I'm not sure if there is any kind of analytics which doesn't
> trace to the 
> IP address.
>
> That gives us the choice of having some analytics, and being trust-
> worthy and 
> taking good care of that info (including deleting the parts we don't
> need).  Or 
> just not having any analytics.
>
> At least that's how I see it.  If there is some analytics app which
> only gives 
> non-personally identifying info, then that's what we should use.  I
> just don't 
> know if there is any such program.
>
>   > (On that note you might also want to consider statistics usually
> only
> represent those people who do not care about privacy and therefore
> will
> likely not catch most of the tech-savvy folks which makes up a large
> group of Inkscape community).
>
> Ah yes, I am aware that I'm not getting statistics on people who
> don't want to 
> be tracked and are aware how to avoid it.   It's interesting, when
> you think of 
> the Inkscape community, you're thinking mostly of developers.  But
> the Inkscape 
> users we see in forums, most are not very tech savvy.  Rather than
> not caring 
> about privacy and security, often they don't know anything about
> it.  (More than 
> once or twice I've  referred people to security forums.)
>
> All best,
> brynn
>
> -----Original Message----- 
> From: Eduard Braun
> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 5:23 PM
> To: brynn ; Martin Owens ; Inkscape-Devel ; Ryan Gorley
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Visitor analytics
>
> Am 28.02.2018 um 00:52 schrieb brynn:
> >
> > Well this goes back to my original comments.  Collecting the info
> > isn't bad, 
> > by itself.  It comes down to the intentions of the people
> > collecting the info. 
> > And as long as we trust ourselves, there's no problem.
> Only a quick comment as you've said that before and I *strongly*
> disagree:
> Real privacy/security is not about trust - it's about guaranteeing
> that
> whatever information we collect can not be misused, even if it falls
> into the wrong hands.
>
> The kind of information mentioned so far can easily be collected in
> anonymized form and I hope we can give our visitors the guarantee no
> identifying information will ever be stored (or transmitted).
>
> I'd favour a solution that does not involve third-party servers (what
> Martin set up seems to depend on it) - then again it makes it easier
> for
> people to block it ;-)
> (On that note you might also want to consider statistics usually only
> represent those people who do not care about privacy and therefore
> will
> likely not catch most of the tech-savvy folks which makes up a large
> group of Inkscape community).
>
> Best Regards,
> Eduard 
>
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