GSoC mentor summit

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GSoC mentor summit

Marc Jeanmougin
Hi all!

Last weekend, I attended the GSoC mentor summit which had a great
variety of very interesting people and sessions, I'm just going to
summarize my thoughts about some of the most interesting sessions and
discussions. Some are mostly board-related, but most can be of interest
to the whole contributors community.

ToC:
* Diversity
* Fuzzing
* Version numbers
* Gitlab : self-hosting & independence
* Bug management
* GCI
* Funding

I started writing all this in a single email, but for clarity, I'm just
going to answer this email with an email for every individual topic,
allowing to thread it nicely on email clients and keep all threads on
mostly one topic.

--
Marc


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Diversity

Marc Jeanmougin

The vast majority of our contributors (especially our code contributors
since we have a bit more diversity in the helping/doc/website part) are,
to put it mildly, not very representative of the diversity of the
world's population.
In one of the sessions, Karen Sandler presented
Outreachy<https://www.outreachy.org/>, a sister project within the SFC,
whose goal is to provide internships very similar to GSoC, but for
groups underrepresented in tech (with the notable differences that
mentees can be non-students and can work on non-code projects).
The main requirement to /enter/ this program (apart from the
requirements we already match, be an opensource program, etc) is that to
show dedication to the idea of increasing diversity, we have to provide
ourselves the funding for the first student, which is $6500 (5500 for
the student, 500 for travel, 500 for outreachy, iirc). From this first
student on, we'll be "in" and outreachy's sponsors help outreachy make
it work more like gsoc (paying the students working on projects)

I propose that we try to enter that program starting next year to try to
build up a more diverse dev community.




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Fuzzing

Marc Jeanmougin
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Google presented a fuzzing tool named
"oss-fuzz"<https://github.com/google/oss-fuzz> that they already tested
on high-profile OSS like crypto libraries or libxml2, and are now
opening to all serious open source projects. It builds up on continuous
integration and tries to craft testing files to test as many code paths
as possible. We could use it to detect when files makes Inkscape crash
on start, for instance (or for other purpose like testing how robust our
css or .gpl "parsers" are, I'll let it to devs/testers creativity)

NB: Above "for instance" is actually a good example: just today, someone
came to IRC with a file that made Inkscape crash, and I simplified it to
https://paste.fulltxt.net/I9,7M1hCFkPmSBV which is the sort of bug a
fuzzer is *designed* to detect (I suspected such bugs were possible when
they presented it, but today's IRC conversation made it a really perfect
example).




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Version numbers

Marc Jeanmougin
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In the non-UNIX world, versions 0.something is usually associated with
"beta". If we manage to have a really stable 0.93 (say, as stable as
0.48.5 and as fast as it), with few regressions, an easily
css-customizable UI on windows that also would look right on 4k screens,
and ideally also works nicely on macs, it might be worth it to call our
0.93.1 … "1.0"
(Yeah, I listed all the main challenges I can think of)



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Gitlab: self-hosting and independence

Marc Jeanmougin
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One of the problems raised in a session was that of dependency on big
platforms: the open source ecosystem in general is fond of
decentralizing and hacking in general, yet relies heavily, for reasons
like visibility/resume/portfolio/comfort/ease, on github[1].
Yet, self-hosting instances has a non-negligible cost (if only in terms
of maintenance and administration) so it's mostly up to each project to
decide if he "can" self-host (for instance, gnome probably has enough
resources, and hosts its gitlab).
I think staying on gitlab.com is sort of a good compromise for us: on
one hand we can benefit from not having to maintain infrastructure, and
we can use the ee version, and we have the shared runners available, and
we are not on a platform as closed as github, on the other hand
sourceforge-like problems (while "locked on a platform") are quite
unlikely: as long as hosting our own gitlab is *possible*, and as long
as the option to export the whole project, along with its bugtracker
data, wiki, etc, is there (in other terms: as long as not only the git
repo is safe, because that is already distributed, but also the
development ecosystem is not locked); we are "free" (in my opinion, feel
free to disagree).

/**
[1]BTW, for visibility purpose, I think it would be good to actually
automatically mirror the repository on github (like gnome :
https://github.com/GNOME). That way, e.g. a recruiter looking at the
github profile would see the Inkscape contributions listed.
(Cons: Doing it for these reasons would mostly mean acknowledging the
dominant position of github for open-source code, which is kind of sad)
**/




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Bugs

Marc Jeanmougin
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== Launchpad ==
It is not very practical to keep our bugs to lp, for several reasons :

* The integration in both directions is non-existent : while we could,
on lp, use  stuff like "bzr commit --fixes lp:123456", and commit/bugs
would link one to the other, and while gitlab MR and bugs can also be
linked
(https://docs.gitlab.com/ce/user/project/issues/closing_issues.html#via-merge-request)
; using separate platforms prevents us to use either of those and forces
to link manually bugs urls in MR and commit URLs in bug comments.

* It is unintuitive to new contributors. They have to subscribe on two
different -- non-integrated -- platforms, with different logins (AND lp
logins is more confusing since it uses "ubuntu one login")

IMO It would be very good to migrate bugs to gitlab (see below).

== Bugs management in general ==
During a session about "managing lots of bugs", I learned a few tricks
that could be of use:

Bug management was also discussed a lot in that session and the advice
that comes most is basically "when in doubt, respectfully close the
issue. A user with a closed issue because of lack of details can always
reopen it simply with those details, but an issue lacking information
left open will drown in an ocean of issues". Migration may help us with
sorting issues that have been taken care of, unreproducible ones,
wishlist items, and such (see below).

A guy from Gitmate (https://gitmate.io) also talked about it and it
looked interesting(also, free for OSS) : basically, automated duplicate
bug detection and ability to automatically contact devs with interest in
the issue (e.g. contacting one dev for issue about text, or another for
crashes or problems in Selection…)

== Wishlist bugs ==
- Opensuse uses a different system for managing feature requests
(https://features.opensuse.org/) and actual bugs. It helps them keep the
discussions on a different platform, and clearly manage them with votes,
discussions, different teams, tags, etc. Overall, considering the
different needs for those two different uses of a bugtracker, I was
rather fond of the idea.
For Inkscape, since we have the option to make "templates" to fill bugs,
I would be in favor of making a new inkscape sub-project in gitlab, just
for feature requests. That way, we would have the possibility to have
devs subscribed to the "bugs" to get the notifications about bugs well
separated from feat requests, and have community members interested
about features requests able to only get the discussions about them.
Also, the set of tags or the default template to fill in would be very
different and they would not appear on the same "list" of issues.

== Migration ==

How I would propose to go about the migration would be to basically post
on every one of the 4500 open bugs on lp a closing message with an
invitation to try to reproduce the bug with the devel version (maybe
with a link to a page explaining how to try it [e.g. Ubuntu with apt,
other linux compiling, windows with downloading the latest built 7z])
and if it can be reliably reproduced, to submit it on gitlab and close
the issue on lp (or, if wishlist, submit it to the wishlist project).
Distributing the task on the bug reporters may help a lot with the
initial triaging, and (I'm an optimist) make for a smooth transition.



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GCI

Marc Jeanmougin
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There were several talks about "google code-in"
(https://codein.withgoogle.com/), which is a program aimed at
high-school students to get them involved in open source programs.
Basically, programs setup "tasks" (which can range from "compile the
project" or "write some documentation about X" to "solve a bug" or
"refactor X", or probably even "improve test coverage", "make a tutorial
video about an underrated feature", etc) and students earn "points" by
completing them, over a six-weeks timeframe.
Tasks are manually checked and validated by the project members (in
<24h), so it requires dedication from several contributors to achieve
this (apparently, there are quite a lot of students participating, so it
also has the immediate side-effect of stress-testing the quality and
efficiency of available project documentation and help channels).

I don't think we have the resources (in terms of people available,
tasks, or doc) to participate in this year's edition (deadline is in 3
days), but I found the idea very interesting, and participating orgs
reported that a lot of former participants stayed as long term
contributors and even helped the next year's contestants.


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Funding

Marc Jeanmougin
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I discussed funding models with various people from different projects,
so here is what I gathered:

* Both VLC and Blender have a lot of sponsorship from hardware companies
who are interested in these softs keeping running smoothly with their
newest hardware on the highest resolution monitors existing. Blender
also has support from the steam workshop, a 3d asset store, their store
(training, books, wear)…
* VLC has a dual structure with a non-profit along with a small startup
in multimedia consulting, paying a dozen devs (They also say that they
have a single ad (adsense) on their download page which alone pays for a
dev)
* MuseScore (software for music sheets) has a website to upload/share
them which has a paying subscription model to upload more than some amount

Overall, no "magical" way to amass vast riches, just a thought that if
we could support GPU SVG rendering we might be able to ask GPU vendors
if they'd be interested in sponsoring us (or conversely if they'd be
interested in sponsoring us so that we could try to implement/use GPUs
in cairo rendering)



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Re: Bugs

mathog
In reply to this post by Marc Jeanmougin
On 20-Oct-2017 15:53, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:

> == Migration ==
>
> How I would propose to go about the migration would be to basically
> post
> on every one of the 4500 open bugs on lp a closing message with an
> invitation to try to reproduce the bug with the devel version (maybe
> with a link to a page explaining how to try it [e.g. Ubuntu with apt,
> other linux compiling, windows with downloading the latest built 7z])
> and if it can be reliably reproduced, to submit it on gitlab and close
> the issue on lp (or, if wishlist, submit it to the wishlist project).
> Distributing the task on the bug reporters may help a lot with the
> initial triaging, and (I'm an optimist) make for a smooth transition.

That is going to create a black hole into which 99% of the information
from the launchpad bug reports is going to fall, some of the ones which
are open, and all of the ones which are not.  I have worked in one way
or another on ~100 bugs and will tell you right now I am NOT going to be
testing again for all of those glitches and issues!  I'm not even that
big a contributor, others have worked on thousands of bugs.  Just think
how long it would take to get through a list like that.  Never mind the
list of people who no longer work on the project and would ignore your
request.

A smooth transition would involve some tool which automatically migrates
all of the bug information from Launchpad to some other bug tracking
platform.  Note that on launchpad links from a bug to a patch/revision
are all entered manually.  Whatever the bug system migrates to, it would
be nice if that function would be integrated.  Ie, place a patch on the
bug reporting system, hit some "push patch" button, and presto links are
made in both directions between the bug reporting system and the
revision system, once the new revision number appears.  If such a thing
actually exists.

Regards,

David Mathog
[hidden email]
Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech


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Re: Bugs

Maren Hachmann
It could be another option to import the old bugs into a separate
project on gl, and then move them to the main project or the feature
project (if desired) when it becomes clear they're still relevant.

That's a lot faster than all that copy-pasting. Could even be an
'event', where we all focus on sorting through them for a couple of
days....  Not sure if it would keep the tags when an issue is being
moved, would be something to try out.

I understand about the need to cut the number of issues down. Keeping a
history is useful, though, for the case when you need to look something
up. I often search in closed bugs on lp. Fix committed/fix released bugs
could go directly into the tracker (as closed, of course).

Sending a message to the users with the links to the new reports is a
great idea! (would need trying out what happens when you move the
reports on gl - do users using the link in the issue on lp get
redirected from the old project?)

I think Eduard and Martin can share links to scripts that can help with
bug migration automatization.

Maren


Am 21.10.2017 um 01:31 schrieb mathog:

> On 20-Oct-2017 15:53, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:
>> == Migration ==
>>
>> How I would propose to go about the migration would be to basically post
>> on every one of the 4500 open bugs on lp a closing message with an
>> invitation to try to reproduce the bug with the devel version (maybe
>> with a link to a page explaining how to try it [e.g. Ubuntu with apt,
>> other linux compiling, windows with downloading the latest built 7z])
>> and if it can be reliably reproduced, to submit it on gitlab and close
>> the issue on lp (or, if wishlist, submit it to the wishlist project).
>> Distributing the task on the bug reporters may help a lot with the
>> initial triaging, and (I'm an optimist) make for a smooth transition.
>
> That is going to create a black hole into which 99% of the information
> from the launchpad bug reports is going to fall, some of the ones which
> are open, and all of the ones which are not.  I have worked in one way
> or another on ~100 bugs and will tell you right now I am NOT going to be
> testing again for all of those glitches and issues!  I'm not even that
> big a contributor, others have worked on thousands of bugs.  Just think
> how long it would take to get through a list like that.  Never mind the
> list of people who no longer work on the project and would ignore your
> request.
>
> A smooth transition would involve some tool which automatically migrates
> all of the bug information from Launchpad to some other bug tracking
> platform.  Note that on launchpad links from a bug to a patch/revision
> are all entered manually.  Whatever the bug system migrates to, it would
> be nice if that function would be integrated.  Ie, place a patch on the
> bug reporting system, hit some "push patch" button, and presto links are
> made in both directions between the bug reporting system and the
> revision system, once the new revision number appears.  If such a thing
> actually exists.
>
> Regards,
>
> David Mathog
> [hidden email]
> Manager, Sequence Analysis Facility, Biology Division, Caltech
>
>
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>
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Re: Diversity

Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
In reply to this post by Marc Jeanmougin
Hi Marc Jeanmougin,

I haven't been involved in Inkscape development for a long time, so feel free to ignore my answer at will. I'm here merely as a curious external figure.

2017-10-20 19:52 GMT-03:00 Marc Jeanmougin <[hidden email]>:
The main requirement to /enter/ this program (apart from the
requirements we already match, be an opensource program, etc) is that to
show dedication to the idea of increasing diversity

So, I'm specially concerned about this part.

What does it mean to embrace diversity? In my dictionary, it is to give (i.e. to empower it) the individual — this post-larval insectoid species of ours — the (often forgotten) liberty to let them create their own worlds, their own realities (freed from the dominant culture that governed them until Hir adolescent age). I find hard to imagine anyone who would challenge this notion, as the opposite is logically unreachable (power all from above dictating what their insectoid properties must be and do... and still... do it differently from EachOther... refusing to take the orders just received... thinking for Thy Selfs and questioning darefullingly authority) and anti-CommonSense.

I grew up passionate with this idea of free software since I knew it. It was very natural for me to keep an eye on several communities gathered around these centers. And you see, Inkscape is one of the most embracing communities I've stumbled upon. Always very help-ful and dedicating generous time (that is theirs to do what they want, not ours) to baby-step any foreign New-Comer to find a place in our community where this temporary New-Comer could become a (semi-)permanent Citizen free to get Hirself entangled in endless spaghetti lines of source code, translating the most alien concepts into Hir native language or find Hir own other ways to engage in this diverse project of ours (but always with good company and chat on Hir side).

So, you see... I feel uneasy about your need to /emphasize/ our commitment To The Cause (never to the so-forgotten Individual). Why do you need to be so emphatic? Are you already predicting further demands from the power all above To The Cause at a later time? I feel particularly uneasy because, like I said, Inkscape is one of the more inviting communities I've stumbled upon, and then you come here to offer some seductive money (*)

(*) given we show some appreciation To The Cause, of course

To think of it — I beg your pardon — but it is so funnily incoherent that I cannot help Myself but laugh. You suggest that our demographics are on par with bigotry and racism, /especially on code/, but then offer some money to allocate people to work on projects that can be code-unrelated? You offer us nothing — it is what you're saying. The project is just the same with or without you.

Now, with the incoherence put aside...

How can we be sure that you're not (not-knowingly) involved in money-laundry from governmental institutions? I mean, by now it's pretty clear that the people who will receive the payment will not be creating relevant commits to our notable Inkscape. Also clear is that /all/ involved with this scheme are /very/ committed To The Cause. This seems like a good way to laundry money mucking the name that the Inkscape community dedicated so many years to make. I just can't take such proposal seriously (it's so funny).

In summary, you came here all-authoritative with the following commandments:

  1. Hey guys, you all are too racist, /to put it mildly/
  2. But don't worry folks, because I brought The Solution.
  3. After you accept me in your boat, the racism will go away, vanish, done. Capisce?
  4. Also, I ask for a vow of loyalty and obedience. You must be faithful To The Cause (never to the Individual). We — I don't mean you, of course — may ask for a few little favours in the future, after all (but don't worry, it's very unlikely, just a formality).
  5. Also, nothing I offered will actually do any changes to the problems I just attacked in this very first approach. So I expect to dominate you at long-term by exploiting your guilty (you don't dare to be Anti-Diversity, do you?).

Did I get it right? Would you put an end to my curiosity (as an external figure)? It's just... funny!


--
Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

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Re: Bugs

Bryce Harrington-3
In reply to this post by mathog
On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 04:31:30PM -0700, mathog wrote:

> On 20-Oct-2017 15:53, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:
> >== Migration ==
> >
> >How I would propose to go about the migration would be to basically post
> >on every one of the 4500 open bugs on lp a closing message with an
> >invitation to try to reproduce the bug with the devel version (maybe
> >with a link to a page explaining how to try it [e.g. Ubuntu with apt,
> >other linux compiling, windows with downloading the latest built 7z])
> >and if it can be reliably reproduced, to submit it on gitlab and close
> >the issue on lp (or, if wishlist, submit it to the wishlist project).
> >Distributing the task on the bug reporters may help a lot with the
> >initial triaging, and (I'm an optimist) make for a smooth transition.
>
> That is going to create a black hole into which 99% of the information from
> the launchpad bug reports is going to fall, some of the ones which are open,
> and all of the ones which are not.  I have worked in one way or another on
> ~100 bugs and will tell you right now I am NOT going to be testing again for
> all of those glitches and issues!  I'm not even that big a contributor,
> others have worked on thousands of bugs.  Just think how long it would take
> to get through a list like that.  Never mind the list of people who no
> longer work on the project and would ignore your request.

Yep.  Marc's right about the problems staying on LP for bugs, and
benefits to moving, but a lot of knowledge is captured and triaging
labor invested in these existing bug reports that would be painful to
lose.

Now, some bug reports have not had any attention invested in them, and
perhaps those specific bug reports could be handled using an automated
notice and closure as Marc proposes.  Particularly so for older bug
reports.  That would not be hard to implement via LP scripting.  Along
with that, we could perhaps turn off filing of new bug reports to LP,
and direct folks to gitlab.

Then the remaining (valuable) bug reports could be manually migrated; in
some cases where the bug report has accumulated a healthy amount of
commentary, the migrated bug report could be a summary of the issue and
research/testing done to date, with a link to the corresponding
mothballed LP bug.  The act of summarizing the issue in itself might be
quite helpful in motivating the bug to resolution.  Main problem is this
would take a huge amount of labor, and could drag on for years.

> A smooth transition would involve some tool which automatically migrates all
> of the bug information from Launchpad to some other bug tracking platform.

When I was at Canonical one of the things I worked on was tools to
upstream X11 and kernel bug reports filed against Ubuntu in Launchpad,
to corresponding Bugzilla instances on Launchpad.  I also spent some
time working as a Launchpad developer on the LP internal code that
migrated from external bug trackers *to* Launchpad.

So, I know there's ways of making all this work, however know that the
migrations are usually always lossy in one sense or another.

Perhaps the most significant issue is that unless we host our own
gitlab, we won't have the user account records in gitlab corresponding
to the bug filers and commenters in Launchpad.  I haven't given this
issue much thought, but I think it's where we most need a good plan.

Bryce

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Re: Version numbers

Bryce Harrington-3
In reply to this post by Marc Jeanmougin
On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:52:46AM +0200, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:
>
> In the non-UNIX world, versions 0.something is usually associated with
> "beta". If we manage to have a really stable 0.93 (say, as stable as
> 0.48.5 and as fast as it), with few regressions, an easily
> css-customizable UI on windows that also would look right on 4k screens,
> and ideally also works nicely on macs, it might be worth it to call our
> 0.93.1 … "1.0"
> (Yeah, I listed all the main challenges I can think of)

Certainly, and in fact that's the plan -- that's why we jumped numbers
from 0.48 up to 0.9x.  Intent has been to get to 1.00 "soonish".

The question is what precisely needs to be achieved, and when we first
discussed it, the list was pretty daunting.  However the good news is
we've checked off a bunch of the items... gtest, cmake, git/gitlab,
gtk3, and so on.

There's still work to get the gtk3 changes looking and working properly,
and I'm hoping Tav can build us a good todo list for what should be
focused on for 0.93 (and maybe 0.94?)

You mention stability and elimination of regressions, which likely is
going to be a big expectation to deliver for a 1.00 release, and so
should be given lots of attention.  I wish I had a better handle on the
size and scope of this work; I worry it could be overwhelmingly huge.
Maybe worth making a prioritized list.  I suppose it depends a lot on
how much devel power we have available for working on the bugs (and how
we can augment it).

At some point we'll want to taper down on feature development work, to
avoid introducing new regressions.  That'll be hard because new features
are always exciting and the pressure to include them is very strong.
Refactoring and architectural adjustment work can also be potential
sources of regressions.

Bryce

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Re: Diversity

doctormo
In reply to this post by Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
Dear Vinícius,

On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 22:44 -0300, Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira wrote:
> Did I get it right?

No.

> Would you put an end to my curiosity (as an external figure)?

Your assumption is that the meeting Marc attended was talking about our
own institutional behaviour, but it's not. We could be perfect in how
we handle contributors and still end up with a lack of diversity.
Because most of the issue after you've got a strong code of conduct is
inherited.

The Inkscape community inherits from the wider world some of the
inherent biases in our contributor mix. We can't change the feed-in mix
very much because they have all sorts of reasons from national policies
to social stratification to global technological reach.

But one thing that can be done is extend extra help to people who /could/ be contributors by being proactive. But that will need deep thought into what exactly we'd be looking for as a community and how exactly to go about a pro-active invitation scheme.

I have no answers for that.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Re: Version numbers

doctormo
In reply to this post by Bryce Harrington-3
Bryce,

We could road map this to create an expected structure.

Get 0.93 out the door with Gtk3 and all the problems that are likely
caused by it

Immediately state the next release will be 1.0, no 0.94 hedging
release.

Then we operate 0.93 to 1.0 like a super long freeze with bug fixes and
regression testing and maybe a few non-feature improvements.

But this kind of thing is a matter for leadership and that may fall on
yourself or who ever wants to be commander in the batter for the 1.0
release.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 23:08 -0700, Bryce Harrington wrote:

> On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:52:46AM +0200, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:
> >
> >
> > In the non-UNIX world, versions 0.something is usually associated
> > with
> > "beta". If we manage to have a really stable 0.93 (say, as stable
> > as
> > 0.48.5 and as fast as it), with few regressions, an easily
> > css-customizable UI on windows that also would look right on 4k
> > screens,
> > and ideally also works nicely on macs, it might be worth it to call
> > our
> > 0.93.1 … "1.0"
> > (Yeah, I listed all the main challenges I can think of)
> Certainly, and in fact that's the plan -- that's why we jumped
> numbers
> from 0.48 up to 0.9x.  Intent has been to get to 1.00 "soonish".
>
> The question is what precisely needs to be achieved, and when we
> first
> discussed it, the list was pretty daunting.  However the good news is
> we've checked off a bunch of the items... gtest, cmake, git/gitlab,
> gtk3, and so on.
>
> There's still work to get the gtk3 changes looking and working
> properly,
> and I'm hoping Tav can build us a good todo list for what should be
> focused on for 0.93 (and maybe 0.94?)
>
> You mention stability and elimination of regressions, which likely is
> going to be a big expectation to deliver for a 1.00 release, and so
> should be given lots of attention.  I wish I had a better handle on
> the
> size and scope of this work; I worry it could be overwhelmingly huge.
> Maybe worth making a prioritized list.  I suppose it depends a lot on
> how much devel power we have available for working on the bugs (and
> how
> we can augment it).
>
> At some point we'll want to taper down on feature development work,
> to
> avoid introducing new regressions.  That'll be hard because new
> features
> are always exciting and the pressure to include them is very strong.
> Refactoring and architectural adjustment work can also be potential
> sources of regressions.
>
> Bryce
>
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Re: Diversity

Felipe Sanches-2
In reply to this post by Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira
I'd like to suggest that we start by banning Vinicius dos Santos Oliveira <[hidden email]> from this mailing list. He clearly is a troll willing to put all necessary effort to make a true hell of any effort at improving diversity.

2017-10-20 23:44 GMT-02:00 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira <[hidden email]>:
Hi Marc Jeanmougin,

I haven't been involved in Inkscape development for a long time, so feel free to ignore my answer at will. I'm here merely as a curious external figure.

2017-10-20 19:52 GMT-03:00 Marc Jeanmougin <[hidden email]>:
The main requirement to /enter/ this program (apart from the
requirements we already match, be an opensource program, etc) is that to
show dedication to the idea of increasing diversity

So, I'm specially concerned about this part.

What does it mean to embrace diversity? In my dictionary, it is to give (i.e. to empower it) the individual — this post-larval insectoid species of ours — the (often forgotten) liberty to let them create their own worlds, their own realities (freed from the dominant culture that governed them until Hir adolescent age). I find hard to imagine anyone who would challenge this notion, as the opposite is logically unreachable (power all from above dictating what their insectoid properties must be and do... and still... do it differently from EachOther... refusing to take the orders just received... thinking for Thy Selfs and questioning darefullingly authority) and anti-CommonSense.

I grew up passionate with this idea of free software since I knew it. It was very natural for me to keep an eye on several communities gathered around these centers. And you see, Inkscape is one of the most embracing communities I've stumbled upon. Always very help-ful and dedicating generous time (that is theirs to do what they want, not ours) to baby-step any foreign New-Comer to find a place in our community where this temporary New-Comer could become a (semi-)permanent Citizen free to get Hirself entangled in endless spaghetti lines of source code, translating the most alien concepts into Hir native language or find Hir own other ways to engage in this diverse project of ours (but always with good company and chat on Hir side).

So, you see... I feel uneasy about your need to /emphasize/ our commitment To The Cause (never to the so-forgotten Individual). Why do you need to be so emphatic? Are you already predicting further demands from the power all above To The Cause at a later time? I feel particularly uneasy because, like I said, Inkscape is one of the more inviting communities I've stumbled upon, and then you come here to offer some seductive money (*)

(*) given we show some appreciation To The Cause, of course

To think of it — I beg your pardon — but it is so funnily incoherent that I cannot help Myself but laugh. You suggest that our demographics are on par with bigotry and racism, /especially on code/, but then offer some money to allocate people to work on projects that can be code-unrelated? You offer us nothing — it is what you're saying. The project is just the same with or without you.

Now, with the incoherence put aside...

How can we be sure that you're not (not-knowingly) involved in money-laundry from governmental institutions? I mean, by now it's pretty clear that the people who will receive the payment will not be creating relevant commits to our notable Inkscape. Also clear is that /all/ involved with this scheme are /very/ committed To The Cause. This seems like a good way to laundry money mucking the name that the Inkscape community dedicated so many years to make. I just can't take such proposal seriously (it's so funny).

In summary, you came here all-authoritative with the following commandments:

  1. Hey guys, you all are too racist, /to put it mildly/
  2. But don't worry folks, because I brought The Solution.
  3. After you accept me in your boat, the racism will go away, vanish, done. Capisce?
  4. Also, I ask for a vow of loyalty and obedience. You must be faithful To The Cause (never to the Individual). We — I don't mean you, of course — may ask for a few little favours in the future, after all (but don't worry, it's very unlikely, just a formality).
  5. Also, nothing I offered will actually do any changes to the problems I just attacked in this very first approach. So I expect to dominate you at long-term by exploiting your guilty (you don't dare to be Anti-Diversity, do you?).

Did I get it right? Would you put an end to my curiosity (as an external figure)? It's just... funny!


--
Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

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Re: Diversity

Miguel Lopez

Hey Inkscape developers, and those otherwho are on the mailing list,

Ok, I am utterly lost here. What does diversity have anything to do with Inkscape development? And second of all, ain't skills is what is relevant at Inkscape development? Orientation, skin color, and so on does not matter at all to the development of Inkscape. And third of all, is there any proof that someone here care so much about irrelevant aspect of a individual? And last of all, can we not bring politics here?


On 10/21/2017 8:56 AM, Felipe Sanches wrote:
I'd like to suggest that we start by banning Vinicius dos Santos Oliveira <[hidden email]> from this mailing list. He clearly is a troll willing to put all necessary effort to make a true hell of any effort at improving diversity.

2017-10-20 23:44 GMT-02:00 Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira <[hidden email]>:
Hi Marc Jeanmougin,

I haven't been involved in Inkscape development for a long time, so feel free to ignore my answer at will. I'm here merely as a curious external figure.

2017-10-20 19:52 GMT-03:00 Marc Jeanmougin <[hidden email]>:
The main requirement to /enter/ this program (apart from the
requirements we already match, be an opensource program, etc) is that to
show dedication to the idea of increasing diversity

So, I'm specially concerned about this part.

What does it mean to embrace diversity? In my dictionary, it is to give (i.e. to empower it) the individual — this post-larval insectoid species of ours — the (often forgotten) liberty to let them create their own worlds, their own realities (freed from the dominant culture that governed them until Hir adolescent age). I find hard to imagine anyone who would challenge this notion, as the opposite is logically unreachable (power all from above dictating what their insectoid properties must be and do... and still... do it differently from EachOther... refusing to take the orders just received... thinking for Thy Selfs and questioning darefullingly authority) and anti-CommonSense.

I grew up passionate with this idea of free software since I knew it. It was very natural for me to keep an eye on several communities gathered around these centers. And you see, Inkscape is one of the most embracing communities I've stumbled upon. Always very help-ful and dedicating generous time (that is theirs to do what they want, not ours) to baby-step any foreign New-Comer to find a place in our community where this temporary New-Comer could become a (semi-)permanent Citizen free to get Hirself entangled in endless spaghetti lines of source code, translating the most alien concepts into Hir native language or find Hir own other ways to engage in this diverse project of ours (but always with good company and chat on Hir side).

So, you see... I feel uneasy about your need to /emphasize/ our commitment To The Cause (never to the so-forgotten Individual). Why do you need to be so emphatic? Are you already predicting further demands from the power all above To The Cause at a later time? I feel particularly uneasy because, like I said, Inkscape is one of the more inviting communities I've stumbled upon, and then you come here to offer some seductive money (*)

(*) given we show some appreciation To The Cause, of course

To think of it — I beg your pardon — but it is so funnily incoherent that I cannot help Myself but laugh. You suggest that our demographics are on par with bigotry and racism, /especially on code/, but then offer some money to allocate people to work on projects that can be code-unrelated? You offer us nothing — it is what you're saying. The project is just the same with or without you.

Now, with the incoherence put aside...

How can we be sure that you're not (not-knowingly) involved in money-laundry from governmental institutions? I mean, by now it's pretty clear that the people who will receive the payment will not be creating relevant commits to our notable Inkscape. Also clear is that /all/ involved with this scheme are /very/ committed To The Cause. This seems like a good way to laundry money mucking the name that the Inkscape community dedicated so many years to make. I just can't take such proposal seriously (it's so funny).

In summary, you came here all-authoritative with the following commandments:

  1. Hey guys, you all are too racist, /to put it mildly/
  2. But don't worry folks, because I brought The Solution.
  3. After you accept me in your boat, the racism will go away, vanish, done. Capisce?
  4. Also, I ask for a vow of loyalty and obedience. You must be faithful To The Cause (never to the Individual). We — I don't mean you, of course — may ask for a few little favours in the future, after all (but don't worry, it's very unlikely, just a formality).
  5. Also, nothing I offered will actually do any changes to the problems I just attacked in this very first approach. So I expect to dominate you at long-term by exploiting your guilty (you don't dare to be Anti-Diversity, do you?).

Did I get it right? Would you put an end to my curiosity (as an external figure)? It's just... funny!


--
Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

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Re: Funding

Tavmjong Bah
In reply to this post by Marc Jeanmougin
On Sat, 2017-10-21 at 00:53 +0200, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:

> I discussed funding models with various people from different
> projects,
> so here is what I gathered:
>
> * Both VLC and Blender have a lot of sponsorship from hardware
> companies
> who are interested in these softs keeping running smoothly with their
> newest hardware on the highest resolution monitors existing. Blender
> also has support from the steam workshop, a 3d asset store, their
> store
> (training, books, wear)…
> * VLC has a dual structure with a non-profit along with a small
> startup
> in multimedia consulting, paying a dozen devs (They also say that
> they
> have a single ad (adsense) on their download page which alone pays
> for a
> dev)
> * MuseScore (software for music sheets) has a website to upload/share
> them which has a paying subscription model to upload more than some
> amount
>
> Overall, no "magical" way to amass vast riches, just a thought that
> if
> we could support GPU SVG rendering we might be able to ask GPU
> vendors
> if they'd be interested in sponsoring us (or conversely if they'd be
> interested in sponsoring us so that we could try to implement/use
> GPUs
> in cairo rendering)

Nvidia approached me a few years ago about adding a GPU backend using
their OpenGL 2d rendering extensions to Inkscape. We (Inkscape) talked
about it briefly but didn't want to start using proprietary things
(Nvidia was trying to get the extensions into the OpenGL standard but
none of the other GPU manufacturers were interested). We had also just
recently moved to Cairo and adding another rendering backend seemed a
bit much. I suggested that they look into an OpenGL backend for Cairo.

The examples they showed of rendering SVG did look great as they could
get rid of a lot of rendering artifacts by rendering at a higer DPI
then scaling down.

Tav


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Re: Diversity

Marc Jeanmougin
In reply to this post by Miguel Lopez
Hi,

This subject has been discussed at the two hackfests of 2016 and 2017.
The fact that we want to strive for a more inclusive and diverse
community is not up for debate.

This is not just about code, but about development: we need to keep an
open and welcoming environment to attract new contributors, and
diversity helps a lot to build a healthy community.

This discussion is not about *whether* but *how* to build a more
diverse/inclusive community. I mention this program for comments because
it was mentioned at the summit, but if you know of similar initiatives,
please share them.

--
Mc


On 10/21/2017 04:26 PM, Miguel Lopez wrote:
> Hey Inkscape developers, and those otherwho are on the mailing list,
>
> Ok, I am utterly lost here. What does diversity have anything to do with
> Inkscape development? And second of all, ain't skills is what is
> relevant at Inkscape development? Orientation, skin color, and so on
> does not matter at all to the development of Inkscape. And third of all,
> is there any proof that someone here care so much about irrelevant
> aspect of a individual? And last of all, can we not bring politics here?


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Re: Diversity

Miguel Lopez

If there is a problem with diversity here and it seem so as Vinicius seem to take a issue with us, then maybe we could make it more obvious that we do accept people of all kinds, and as a matter of fact, you can add me as a example. I'm a post-heterosexual asexual person, and I been asexual since I was about 16 years old, and I'm going to be 24 this year. How do we make it obvious though? I do prefer it if we weren't involved in politics, and the last thing Inkscape needs is to be political, but it's inevitable I guess.


On 10/21/2017 11:41 AM, Marc Jeanmougin wrote:
Hi,

This subject has been discussed at the two hackfests of 2016 and 2017.
The fact that we want to strive for a more inclusive and diverse
community is not up for debate.

This is not just about code, but about development: we need to keep an
open and welcoming environment to attract new contributors, and
diversity helps a lot to build a healthy community.

This discussion is not about *whether* but *how* to build a more
diverse/inclusive community. I mention this program for comments because
it was mentioned at the summit, but if you know of similar initiatives,
please share them.



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