Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

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K B
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Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

K B
All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken

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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Sam

Hi Ken,

You need the shape tool. In Windows you can use the F5 key to activate the circle tool, and then use Shift + CTRL + F to open the properties window. In this window you can set the background color of the circle and the color of the line.

Here's a video on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/eigHcF_KLKE

Sam


Am 28.08.2018 um 06:30 schrieb K B:
All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken


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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

K B
Hi, Sam:

Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.  I must have messed up the Circle tool some how, so I just deleted the whole program and re-installed it again.  Then it worked the way it was suppose to.  But I still needed help to get the Line to show up.  That was a good video; just wished they added narration (would have made it a little easier).
Do you know of any way to save settings ?  They always seem to divert back to the way they were.  This is a great software program once one really learns how to use it. 

Ken



On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 9:47 PM Sam <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Ken,

You need the shape tool. In Windows you can use the F5 key to activate the circle tool, and then use Shift + CTRL + F to open the properties window. In this window you can set the background color of the circle and the color of the line.

Here's a video on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/eigHcF_KLKE

Sam


Am 28.08.2018 um 06:30 schrieb K B:
All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken


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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Maren Hachmann
Here's a link to an article that you can refer to if this happens again
deleting the preferences isn't the best option...):

http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=18

("What To Do When A Tool Stops Working
(Or Tools are Drawing Invisible Objects)")

Maren

Am 28.08.2018 um 10:10 schrieb K B:

> Hi, Sam:
>
> Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.  I must have
> messed up the Circle tool some how, so I just deleted the whole program
> and re-installed it again.  Then it worked the way it was suppose to. 
> But I still needed help to get the Line to show up.  That was a good
> video; just wished they added narration (would have made it a little
> easier).
> Do you know of any way to save settings ?  They always seem to divert
> back to the way they were.  This is a great software program once one
> really learns how to use it. 
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 9:47 PM Sam <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Ken,
>
>     You need the shape tool. In Windows you can use the F5 key to
>     activate the circle tool, and then use Shift + CTRL + F to open the
>     properties window. In this window you can set the background color
>     of the circle and the color of the line.
>
>     Here's a video on YouTube.
>
>     https://youtu.be/eigHcF_KLKE
>
>     Sam
>
>
>     Am 28.08.2018 um 06:30 schrieb K B:
>>     All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle.
>>     (white background with white inside the circle).
>>
>>     But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. 
>>     Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. 
>>     So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed
>>     under Shapes!   Crazy.
>>
>>     Does anybody know what I should do?
>>
>>     Thank you.
>>
>>     Ken
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>     engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Inkscape-user mailing list
>>     [hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>     engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

K B
Thank you, Maren for that article.  I think that's probably what happen to me, but I had no
idea on what to do.  This software program has been very tricky to me so far.  I just tried to draw
a simple straight Line and as soon as I release the mouse, it disappears!   I must have the wrong
setting or not doing something right.  

Ken

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 4:33 AM Maren Hachmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Here's a link to an article that you can refer to if this happens again
deleting the preferences isn't the best option...):

http://forum.inkscapecommunity.com/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=18

("What To Do When A Tool Stops Working
(Or Tools are Drawing Invisible Objects)")

Maren

Am 28.08.2018 um 10:10 schrieb K B:
> Hi, Sam:
>
> Thank you so much for taking the time to help me out.  I must have
> messed up the Circle tool some how, so I just deleted the whole program
> and re-installed it again.  Then it worked the way it was suppose to. 
> But I still needed help to get the Line to show up.  That was a good
> video; just wished they added narration (would have made it a little
> easier).
> Do you know of any way to save settings ?  They always seem to divert
> back to the way they were.  This is a great software program once one
> really learns how to use it. 
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 27, 2018 at 9:47 PM Sam <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Ken,
>
>     You need the shape tool. In Windows you can use the F5 key to
>     activate the circle tool, and then use Shift + CTRL + F to open the
>     properties window. In this window you can set the background color
>     of the circle and the color of the line.
>
>     Here's a video on YouTube.
>
>     https://youtu.be/eigHcF_KLKE
>
>     Sam
>
>
>     Am 28.08.2018 um 06:30 schrieb K B:
>>     All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle.
>>     (white background with white inside the circle).
>>
>>     But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares. 
>>     Two squares are on the rectangle and the other two are outside. 
>>     So, I go into: Edit, Preferences and the Circle it not even listed
>>     under Shapes!   Crazy.
>>
>>     Does anybody know what I should do?
>>
>>     Thank you.
>>
>>     Ken
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>>     engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     Inkscape-user mailing list
>>     [hidden email]
>>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>     engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
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>     [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>


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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Brynn
In reply to this post by K B
Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time
ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for
Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter
confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their
own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution.
See this bug report:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could
get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of
headache for new users?

Thank you very much,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: K B
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background
with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares
are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit,
Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken





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K B
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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

K B
Hi, Brynn:  
Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators
are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to
pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time
ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for
Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter
confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their
own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution.
See this bug report:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could
get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of
headache for new users?

Thank you very much,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: K B
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background
with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares
are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit,
Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken





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C R
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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

C R
The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway. 

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black. 

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one. 


-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Brynn:  
Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators
are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to
pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time
ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for
Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter
confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their
own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution.
See this bug report:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could
get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of
headache for new users?

Thank you very much,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: K B
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background
with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares
are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit,
Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken





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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

K B
Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%.  I can still remember when I first used it; it was
so frustrating!  It did not preform like you think it would.  I also was just trying
to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would.
If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator.
Ken 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway. 

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black. 

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one. 


-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Brynn:  
Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators
are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to
pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time
ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for
Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter
confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their
own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution.
See this bug report:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could
get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of
headache for new users?

Thank you very much,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: K B
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background
with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares
are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit,
Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken





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C R
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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

C R
We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape. 

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%.  I can still remember when I first used it; it was
so frustrating!  It did not preform like you think it would.  I also was just trying
to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would.
If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator.
Ken 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway. 

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black. 

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one. 


-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Brynn:  
Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators
are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to
pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time
ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for
Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter
confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their
own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution.
See this bug report:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could
get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of
headache for new users?

Thank you very much,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: K B
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background
with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares
are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit,
Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken





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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Martin Owens-2
In reply to this post by K B
On Thu, 2018-08-30 at 02:26 -0700, K B wrote:
> If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using
> Adobe's Illustrator.

All software has issues, Adobe Illustrator included.

Have you used Illustrator before? Were you trained on it?

We find people who come from Corel Draw have an easier time with
Inkscape's interface and people from Illustrator have a harder time.

Martin,

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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Maren Hachmann
In reply to this post by C R
Am 30.08.2018 um 10:48 schrieb C R:

> The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape
> should never draw an invisible object anyway. 
>
> Particularly,
>
> 1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to
> the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and
> white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 
>
> 2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none",
> Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.
1. CR, how would users create invisible objects that are needed, then?
(e.g. for alignment, or for text-on-path etc.?)

2. One could have multiple objects selected and be changing their line
width, and then suddenly some get a black contour... Imagine having a
group, for example, with stroked and unstroked objects.

I'd prefer keeping as is / having a noob mode that enables these kinds
of helps / or putting the stroke style dialog and the stroke color
dialog in a way that one can clearly see that there's no color assigned,
when changing the stroke width (I always found it annoying that those
are separate...).

Maren

> I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of
> Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having
> to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they
> draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life
> you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until
> you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one. 
>
>
> -C
>
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi, Brynn:  
>     Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free,
>     maybe the creators
>     are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?
>
>     If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would
>     have enough money to
>     pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 
>
>     Ken
>
>     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing
>         lists some time
>         ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the
>         tools set for
>         Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this
>         kind of utter
>         confusion among new users.
>
>         At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked
>         it into their
>         own different project.
>
>         But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a
>         reasonable solution.
>         See this bug report: 
>         https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777
>
>         If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution,
>         perhaps we could
>         get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this
>         type of
>         headache for new users?
>
>         Thank you very much,
>         brynn
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: K B
>         Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
>         To: [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating
>
>
>         All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle.
>         (white background
>         with white inside the circle).
>
>         But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little
>         squares.  Two squares
>         are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go
>         into: Edit,
>         Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.
>
>         Does anybody know what I should do?
>
>         Thank you.
>
>         Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>         engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>
>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
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>         [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>         engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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>         [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
>     engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org!
>     http://sdm.link/slashdot_______________________________________________
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>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> [hidden email]
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>


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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Mark Crutch-2
FWIW I quite like the proposal in the bug report Brynn linked to, whereby a third option other than "last used style" or "tool's own style" is available. As I understand it, the third mode would behave like "tool's own style" when a file is first opened or a new document created, then switch to behaving like "last used style" during the course of editing. This has the advantage of starting each session from a known state, but also tracking changes to the state throughout the course of a session.

It won't stop people getting into a situation where they accidentally create invisible objects, but it will make it more likely that the default newbie reaction of "quit and restart the program" would get them back to a (perceived) working state.

Regards,

Mark


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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Maren Hachmann
Am 30.08.2018 um 15:51 schrieb Mark Crutch:

> FWIW I quite like the proposal in the bug report Brynn linked to,
> whereby a third option other than "last used style" or "tool's own
> style" is available. As I understand it, the third mode would behave
> like "tool's own style" when a file is first opened or a new document
> created, then switch to behaving like "last used style" during the
> course of editing. This has the advantage of starting each session from
> a known state, but also tracking changes to the state throughout the
> course of a session.
>
> It won't stop people getting into a situation where they accidentally
> create invisible objects, but it will make it more likely that the
> default newbie reaction of "quit and restart the program" would get them
> back to a (perceived) working state.

- Yes, that sounds like a good idea, I agree.

Maren

> Regards,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>


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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

K B
In reply to this post by Martin Owens-2
Martin:  No, never used it.  I just assumed since it costs a lot of
money it would be a lot better.  :o)
Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 5:44 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 2018-08-30 at 02:26 -0700, K B wrote:
> If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using
> Adobe's Illustrator.

All software has issues, Adobe Illustrator included.

Have you used Illustrator before? Were you trained on it?

We find people who come from Corel Draw have an easier time with
Inkscape's interface and people from Illustrator have a harder time.

Martin,

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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

K B
In reply to this post by C R
C R:
I guess I was looking to do some real simple basic stuff and came into a
very robust program with many bells and whistles that made it more complicated
and harder to learn.  Wished they had a "Lite version" so I could get up and running
right away.  I am not a professional illustrator, just want to create fairly simple Line Designs.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:42 AM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape. 

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%.  I can still remember when I first used it; it was
so frustrating!  It did not preform like you think it would.  I also was just trying
to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would.
If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator.
Ken 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway. 

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black. 

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one. 


-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Brynn:  
Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators
are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to
pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time
ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for
Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter
confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their
own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution.
See this bug report:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could
get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of
headache for new users?

Thank you very much,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: K B
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background
with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares
are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit,
Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken





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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Victor Westmann
Hi ken,

Inkscape it is really amazing and can do a ton of things... you just have to take some time to learn it.

I would say that watching the Channel "Logos by Nick" on youtube is a really good start.

He teaches things from begin to end and teaches a lot of cool stuff.

Wish you all the best,



--Victor Westmann

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:53 AM, K B <[hidden email]> wrote:
C R:
I guess I was looking to do some real simple basic stuff and came into a
very robust program with many bells and whistles that made it more complicated
and harder to learn.  Wished they had a "Lite version" so I could get up and running
right away.  I am not a professional illustrator, just want to create fairly simple Line Designs.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:42 AM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape. 

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%.  I can still remember when I first used it; it was
so frustrating!  It did not preform like you think it would.  I also was just trying
to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would.
If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator.
Ken 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway. 

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black. 

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one. 


-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Brynn:  
Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators
are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to
pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time
ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for
Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter
confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their
own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution.
See this bug report:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could
get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of
headache for new users?

Thank you very much,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: K B
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background
with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares
are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit,
Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken





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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

C R
In reply to this post by Maren Hachmann

> 1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to
> the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and
> white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 
>
> 2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none",> Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black.
1. CR, how would users create invisible objects that are needed, then?
(e.g. for alignment, or for text-on-path etc.?)

One would not. The user would never need to draw a shape they can neither see nor select.
One would use a regular old visible object and do the inadvisable thing of making them without fill and stroke after the fact, which makes them not only completely hidden, but non selectable either.

For alignment, it's better to have visible shapes on a separate layer called "alignment" and hide the alignment shape layer when you do not want it visible. This makes it much more useful because them you can easily unhide and reselect shapes later.
For one-off alignment, just delete she shape after using it for alignment, or use the shape to guides function.

There are other ways to do this too (lots), and none of them involve drawing invisible shapes.

2. One could have multiple objects selected and be changing their line
width, and then suddenly some get a black contour... Imagine having a
group, for example, with stroked and unstroked objects.

Not sure what this is saying. :) Changing shape properties with a group selected is another inadvisable thing to do, as it often doesn't work at all, or works not as expected (ever try to change the gradient on a shape, and it's just not working no matter what you do, only to find that its the groups gradient you are changing? Yea, no. Not good practice, and asking for trouble in Inkscape's current state.
 

I'd prefer keeping as is / having a noob mode that enables these kinds
of helps / or putting the stroke style dialog and the stroke color
dialog in a way that one can clearly see that there's no color assigned,
when changing the stroke width (I always found it annoying that those
are separate...).

Yes, that's sort of where the conversation ended last time. Its one of my to do list items to re-think the colour fill/stroke indicators to include helpful things that let the user know what's going on without having to call up the fill/stroke dialogue.
Please correct if wrong, but I think thats what Brynn is referring to as "derailing", but it isn't. It's just part of a good wholistic solution which we have not sorted out yet.

-C


Maren

> I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of
> Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having
> to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they
> draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life
> you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until
> you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one. 
>
>
> -C
>
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     Hi, Brynn:  
>     Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free,
>     maybe the creators
>     are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?
>
>     If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would
>     have enough money to
>     pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 
>
>     Ken
>
>     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing
>         lists some time
>         ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the
>         tools set for
>         Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this
>         kind of utter
>         confusion among new users.
>
>         At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked
>         it into their
>         own different project.
>
>         But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a
>         reasonable solution.
>         See this bug report: 
>         https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777
>
>         If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution,
>         perhaps we could
>         get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this
>         type of
>         headache for new users?
>
>         Thank you very much,
>         brynn
>
>         -----Original Message-----
>         From: K B
>         Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
>         To: [hidden email]
>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
>         Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating
>
>
>         All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle.
>         (white background
>         with white inside the circle).
>
>         But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little
>         squares.  Two squares
>         are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go
>         into: Edit,
>         Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.
>
>         Does anybody know what I should do?
>
>         Thank you.
>
>         Ken
>
>
>
>
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
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>         <mailto:[hidden email]>
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>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
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>
>
>
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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

K B
In reply to this post by Victor Westmann
Victor:  Thank you!   I did not know about the Logos by Nick videos.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:59 AM Victor Westmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi ken,

Inkscape it is really amazing and can do a ton of things... you just have to take some time to learn it.

I would say that watching the Channel "Logos by Nick" on youtube is a really good start.

He teaches things from begin to end and teaches a lot of cool stuff.

Wish you all the best,



--Victor Westmann

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:53 AM, K B <[hidden email]> wrote:
C R:
I guess I was looking to do some real simple basic stuff and came into a
very robust program with many bells and whistles that made it more complicated
and harder to learn.  Wished they had a "Lite version" so I could get up and running
right away.  I am not a professional illustrator, just want to create fairly simple Line Designs.

Ken

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:42 AM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
We are working hard to make it better and easier and more intuitive to use. You can certainly help our efforts by donation to the project - every little bit helps.

In the meantime it's probably easier to learn Inkscape's quirks and just work around them for now. I've been using Inkscape as a professional designer for over 7 years now, and once you get the hang of it, it's not so bad. A lot of bugs have been fixed since I first started using it, and lots of new features added. Mostly I'm grateful for devs who have helped and continue to help solve problems, and help where I can, and for community members who help users and make videos on how to use Inkscape. 

Your feedback also helps, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:27 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Brynn/CR:

I agree with you 100%.  I can still remember when I first used it; it was
so frustrating!  It did not preform like you think it would.  I also was just trying
to use the eraser, but it did not erase part of the image like I thought it would.
If I had a lot of extra money, I would probably just start using Adobe's Illustrator.
Ken 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:48 AM C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
The problem is there is no agreed upon solution. But I think Inkscape should never draw an invisible object anyway. 

Particularly,

1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 

2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to "none", Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape default : black. 

I think this is a better solution than setting the default behaviour of Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to having to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different one. 


-C

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Brynn:  
Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free, maybe the creators
are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?

If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there would have enough money to
pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 

Ken

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing lists some time
ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some of the tools set for
Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this kind of utter
confusion among new users.

At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of hijacked it into their
own different project.

But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a reasonable solution.
See this bug report:  https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777

If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution, perhaps we could
get it coded into one of the next new versions, and prevent this type of
headache for new users?

Thank you very much,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: K B
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating


All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle. (white background
with white inside the circle).

But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little squares.  Two squares
are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go into: Edit,
Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under Shapes!   Crazy.

Does anybody know what I should do?

Thank you.

Ken





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Re: Inkscape can be extremely frustrating

Maren Hachmann
In reply to this post by C R
Am 30.08.2018 um 21:09 schrieb C R:

>
>     > 1. If both fill and stroke are set to none, Inkscape should resort to
>     > the Inkscape default setting of the bezier tool, which is black and
>     > white without dashed lines. Drawing an invisible shape is an error. 
>     >
>     > 2. If the user modifies the line width, and the line is set to
>     "none",> Inkscape should set the colour of the line to the Inkscape
>     default : black.
>     1. CR, how would users create invisible objects that are needed, then?
>     (e.g. for alignment, or for text-on-path etc.?)
>
>
> One would not. The user would never need to draw a shape they can
> neither see nor select.
> One would use a regular old visible object and do the inadvisable thing
> of making them without fill and stroke after the fact, which makes them
> not only completely hidden, but non selectable either.
>
> For alignment, it's better to have visible shapes on a separate layer
> called "alignment" and hide the alignment shape layer when you do not
> want it visible. This makes it much more useful because them you can
> easily unhide and reselect shapes later.
> For one-off alignment, just delete she shape after using it for
> alignment, or use the shape to guides function.
>
> There are other ways to do this too (lots), and none of them involve
> drawing invisible shapes.

- I think I'll demo what I need for alignment on the hackfest, then you
can give advice that is more suited to the real case (these don't work,
esp. not if you're dealing with clones or symbols). I now understand
that you're restricting this suggestion to *drawing* invisible objects
(vs. creating them, or allowing them in the document) - so that's
probably fine with most people :)

It can't ever catch all the cases, though. Layers? Groups? Too much
blur? A clip or mask? Other objects above in a different layer? There
are so many of those that cause drawing invisible objects, and Inkscape
doesn't help with determining the cause (btw. opacity at 0 is the most
frequent cause, esp. as there is a bug about the opacity indicator field
in the current stable version, after that comes 'fill alpha at 0'. 'no
stroke, no fill' is a lot rarer, in my experience).

>     2. One could have multiple objects selected and be changing their line
>     width, and then suddenly some get a black contour... Imagine having a
>     group, for example, with stroked and unstroked objects.
>
>
> Not sure what this is saying. :) Changing shape properties with a group
> selected is another inadvisable thing to do, as it often doesn't work at
> all, or works not as expected (ever try to change the gradient on a
> shape, and it's just not working no matter what you do, only to find
> that its the groups gradient you are changing? Yea, no. Not good
> practice, and asking for trouble in Inkscape's current state.

- It might be inadvisable, but it's quick and a way that is currently
available to change the line width of a line drawing (like a simple
cartoon). I wasn't talking about gradients, and also not about shape
properties.

I just don't expect Inkscape to add a stroke when I change the line
width - I understand that it might help new users, but it's also
illogical. Turning one knob should only change that knob's value, not
anything else. I find /that/ confusing. It also may become quite
annoying to people who do animations and other scripting stuff, and who
might need 'none' lines with a certain width, for example... And now
don't say "They can just remove it again" :-)


>
>     I'd prefer keeping as is / having a noob mode that enables these kinds
>     of helps / or putting the stroke style dialog and the stroke color
>     dialog in a way that one can clearly see that there's no color assigned,
>     when changing the stroke width (I always found it annoying that those
>     are separate...).
>
>
> Yes, that's sort of where the conversation ended last time. Its one of
> my to do list items to re-think the colour fill/stroke indicators to
> include helpful things that let the user know what's going on without
> having to call up the fill/stroke dialogue.

- Sounds good!

> Please correct if wrong, but I think thats what Brynn is referring to as
> "derailing", but it isn't. It's just part of a good wholistic solution
> which we have not sorted out yet.

- Thanks for sharing your ideas!

Maren

> -C
>
>
>     Maren
>
>     > I think this is a better solution than setting the default
>     behaviour of
>     > Inkscape to a bad workflow - users should not be getting used to
>     having
>     > to change the colour of the line and stroke each and every time they
>     > draw something. It is not intuitive because when you draw in real life
>     > you pick up a pen which is the colour you want and draw with it until
>     > you are done, then choose another colour when you want a different
>     one. 
>     >
>     >
>     > -C
>     >
>     > On Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 07:59 K B, <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     > <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >     Hi, Brynn:  
>     >     Thank you for the Link about the Bug fix.  Since Inkscape is free,
>     >     maybe the creators
>     >     are not very motivated to fix everything about  it ?
>     >
>     >     If it were a high price program like Adobe Illustrator, there
>     would
>     >     have enough money to
>     >     pay programmers to fix it and make it better. 
>     >
>     >     Ken
>     >
>     >     On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 10:47 PM brynn <[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >     <mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>> wrote:
>     >
>     >         Some developers may remember a message I posted to the mailing
>     >         lists some time
>     >         ago, maybe a year or 2 ago, asking to have at least some
>     of the
>     >         tools set for
>     >         Own Style (by default) rather than Last Used, to prevent this
>     >         kind of utter
>     >         confusion among new users.
>     >
>     >         At first, on the mailing list, some developers sort of
>     hijacked
>     >         it into their
>     >         own different project.
>     >
>     >         But ultimately (in a bug report) one developer suggested a
>     >         reasonable solution.
>     >         See this bug report: 
>     >         https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1704777
>     >
>     >         If anyone else (developers) could chime in on that solution,
>     >         perhaps we could
>     >         get it coded into one of the next new versions, and
>     prevent this
>     >         type of
>     >         headache for new users?
>     >
>     >         Thank you very much,
>     >         brynn
>     >
>     >         -----Original Message-----
>     >         From: K B
>     >         Sent: Monday, August 27, 2018 10:30 PM
>     >         To: [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >         <mailto:[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     >         Subject: [Inkscape-user] Inkscape can be extremely frustrating
>     >
>     >
>     >         All I want to do to begin with is draw a simple Line Circle.
>     >         (white background
>     >         with white inside the circle).
>     >
>     >         But instead it draws a dashed-rectangle with (4) little
>     >         squares.  Two squares
>     >         are on the rectangle and the other two are outside.  So, I go
>     >         into: Edit,
>     >         Preferences and the Circle it not even listed under
>     Shapes!   Crazy.
>     >
>     >         Does anybody know what I should do?
>     >
>     >         Thank you.
>     >
>     >         Ken
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >       
>      ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>     most
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>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >         _______________________________________________
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>     >         [hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     >         <mailto:[hidden email]
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>     >         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>     >
>     >
>     >       
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>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
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>     >
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>     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
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>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
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>
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