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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Alexandre Prokoudine
On 6/2/05, Peter Moulder <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I see variants on this question from time to time, like
>
>   How does one get special characters, like left and right quotes, in
>   Inkscape's text?

I know that Inkscape differs from InDesign _a lot_, but the thing I
like about ID is that its text frame's pop-up menu has a couple of
submenus for inserting special characters like (C), (R), and different
types of quotation marks. Scribus (1.3cvs) has such submenus now as
well, but in main application's menu Insert.

Would it be a good idea to add such a functionality to Inkscape?

Alexandre


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Digital Unleashed
On Sunday 05 Jun 2005 16:22, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> I know that Inkscape differs from InDesign _a lot_, but the thing I
> like about ID is that its text frame's pop-up menu has a couple of
> submenus for inserting special characters like (C), (R), and different
> types of quotation marks. Scribus (1.3cvs) has such submenus now as
> well, but in main application's menu Insert.
>
> Would it be a good idea to add such a functionality to Inkscape?

I don't speak for anyone on the Inkscape team, but personally, I'd rather not
see this in Inkscape.  Your OS almost certainly already provides that
feature.  And, since international unicode character sets consist of tens of
thousands of characters, any attempt by inkscape to reproduce that
functionality would be very limited by comparison.

Have a look around your OS for a "character selection" utility, or something
similar.  Also, if you're using X windows, lookup the details for xmodmap,
which will let you map copyright to AltGr-c or whatever key you want.

--
Lee Braiden
http://www.DigitalUnleashed.com/


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Kevin Wixson
I think you're asking a lot of users, just to avoid doing something that
other programs offer. If it's so problematic, why do other programs do it?



Digital Unleashed wrote:

>On Sunday 05 Jun 2005 16:22, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>  
>
>>I know that Inkscape differs from InDesign _a lot_, but the thing I
>>like about ID is that its text frame's pop-up menu has a couple of
>>submenus for inserting special characters like (C), (R), and different
>>types of quotation marks. Scribus (1.3cvs) has such submenus now as
>>well, but in main application's menu Insert.
>>
>>Would it be a good idea to add such a functionality to Inkscape?
>>    
>>
>
>I don't speak for anyone on the Inkscape team, but personally, I'd rather not
>see this in Inkscape.  Your OS almost certainly already provides that
>feature.  And, since international unicode character sets consist of tens of
>thousands of characters, any attempt by inkscape to reproduce that
>functionality would be very limited by comparison.
>
>Have a look around your OS for a "character selection" utility, or something
>similar.  Also, if you're using X windows, lookup the details for xmodmap,
>which will let you map copyright to AltGr-c or whatever key you want.
>
>  
>


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Alexandre Prokoudine
On 6/5/05, Kevin Wixson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think you're asking a lot of users, just to avoid doing something that
> other programs offer. If it's so problematic, why do other programs do it?

Because text doesn't consist of letters and punctuation marks only.
And you surely want other often used special characters to be easy
accessible. E.g. following russian typography traditions you need two
types of quotation marks for a text in two languages like Russian and
English, because Russian quotation marks are not the same as in
American English. Using a pop-up menu or even a hotkey is _a lot_
easier than going to gucharmap or whatever or even using clipboard.
This is the matter of experience, no kidding, no offence :)

Alexandre


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Aaron Spike-2
In reply to this post by Digital Unleashed
Digital Unleashed wrote:
> On Sunday 05 Jun 2005 16:22, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>>Would it be a good idea to add such a functionality to Inkscape?
>
> I don't speak for anyone on the Inkscape team, but personally, I'd rather not
> see this in Inkscape.  Your OS almost certainly already provides that
> feature.  And, since international unicode character sets consist of tens of
> thousands of characters, any attempt by inkscape to reproduce that
> functionality would be very limited by comparison.

I would guess, however, that most users only use 10 to 15 odd characters
with great regularity. So a configurable quickpick list might be a nice
feature. Users who get more indepth than that will certainly know how to
use the OS's character selector tool.

Aaron Spike


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Kevin Wixson
In reply to this post by Alexandre Prokoudine
Alexandre: I'm afraid you missed my point, but thank you for
articulating the point further. I am actually in favor of some sort of
in-program solution for adding these characters and was sincerely
asking, "If other programs do it, why shouldn't Inkscape?" I think it
should.

That said, it may not be a priority issue, and other features and
enhancements may need to come first. I would just like it if someone
acknowledged it as a feature Inkscape could and should have at some
point down the road.



Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

>On 6/5/05, Kevin Wixson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>I think you're asking a lot of users, just to avoid doing something that
>>other programs offer. If it's so problematic, why do other programs do it?
>>    
>>
>
>Because text doesn't consist of letters and punctuation marks only.
>And you surely want other often used special characters to be easy
>accessible. E.g. following russian typography traditions you need two
>types of quotation marks for a text in two languages like Russian and
>English, because Russian quotation marks are not the same as in
>American English. Using a pop-up menu or even a hotkey is _a lot_
>easier than going to gucharmap or whatever or even using clipboard.
>This is the matter of experience, no kidding, no offence :)
>
>Alexandre
>
>
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>
>
>  
>


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Alexandre Prokoudine
On 6/5/05, Kevin Wixson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Alexandre: I'm afraid you missed my point,

Not really. I've answered rather to Digital Unleashed, but couldn't
stop myself from using your letter as a starting point :)

> That said, it may not be a priority issue, and other features and
> enhancements may need to come first. I would just like it if someone
> acknowledged it as a feature Inkscape could and should have at some
> point down the road.

+1

I personally think that having a consistent text toolbar is much more
important in usability aspect. But I'm just a user and translator.
Don't count on me when it comes to actually coding :)

Alexandre


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Craig Bradney
In reply to this post by Digital Unleashed
On Sunday 05 June 2005 18:14, Digital Unleashed wrote:

> On Sunday 05 Jun 2005 16:22, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> > I know that Inkscape differs from InDesign _a lot_, but the thing I
> > like about ID is that its text frame's pop-up menu has a couple of
> > submenus for inserting special characters like (C), (R), and different
> > types of quotation marks. Scribus (1.3cvs) has such submenus now as
> > well, but in main application's menu Insert.
> >
> > Would it be a good idea to add such a functionality to Inkscape?
>
> I don't speak for anyone on the Inkscape team, but personally, I'd rather
> not see this in Inkscape.  Your OS almost certainly already provides that
> feature.  And, since international unicode character sets consist of tens
> of thousands of characters, any attempt by inkscape to reproduce that
> functionality would be very limited by comparison.
>
> Have a look around your OS for a "character selection" utility, or
> something similar.  Also, if you're using X windows, lookup the details for
> xmodmap, which will let you map copyright to AltGr-c or whatever key you
> want.

Simply, your OS will lie to you.

Yes. Many will do auto glyph substitution which you certainly DO NOT want in
DTP (they will often show more glyphs than are available within a certain
font file). Many are too complicated and the interfaces are inconsistent with
the application, especially across platform.

For these reasons, Scribus has its own Insert Glyph dialog which Scribus
itself generates from freetype information (as we do not rely on anything
other than freetype and the font files themselves).

DTP programs typically ALSO have a standard set of (C), (R), TM, spacing,
quoting etc glyphs on a menu because its a handy way to get at these
characters without searching through an Insert Glyph dialog that can contain
thousands of characters.

The amount of requests for this we have for what we have now in Scribus has
been quite high over time, hence its now in 1.3.0cvs.

Also, The ISO 14755 *suggests* Control-Shift for insertion of unicode chars. I
know that GTK2 supports this, but I havent tested it with Inkscape yet.

While Inkscape isnt a DTP program as such, it can be used for that, and it is
certainly used in conjunction with apps like Scribus.

Craig
Scribus Team


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Lee Braiden-2
On Sunday 05 Jun 2005 22:13, Craig Bradney wrote:
> Simply, your OS will lie to you.
>
> Yes. Many will do auto glyph substitution which you certainly DO NOT want
> in DTP (they will often show more glyphs than are available within a
> certain font file). Many are too complicated and the interfaces are
> inconsistent with the application, especially across platform.

Ahh, font aliases?  That's good point, yes.

On complexity of the character selection tools, though, I think that would be
a matter best solved by adding a basic mode to the tools, rather than trying
to re-invent the wheel.

I don't think it's such an issue anyway: if people are modifying nodes on a
bezier curve and managing layers, launching a program to copy and paste a
character should not be too difficult.  It seems to me that it would be more
difficult to suggest a different way of doing it from what they may be used
to in other applications.  After all, if they need those characters in
Inkscape, they probably need them on their emails or their word processor or
something too.

Operating systems already supply this functionality, so I think it's silly to
pretend we know the operating system better than the people who develop them.  
That sort of thing used to happen a lot back in the early nineties, with
people re-inventing GUIs over and over again.  Mostly, it was a mistake.  The
only time we see that happen often now is in GUI skins.  What you get is
something that looks cool and might sell more products (if that's a goal),
but fits in badly with the rest of the UI experience, and damages overall
workflow.

I didn't know there was an ISO suggestion for keystrokes.  Seems like a good
thing to support.

--
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http://www.DigitalUnleashed.com


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Re: How to input non-ASCII characters in Inkscape

Craig Bradney
On Sunday 05 June 2005 23:47, Lee Braiden wrote:

> On Sunday 05 Jun 2005 22:13, Craig Bradney wrote:
> > Simply, your OS will lie to you.
> >
> > Yes. Many will do auto glyph substitution which you certainly DO NOT want
> > in DTP (they will often show more glyphs than are available within a
> > certain font file). Many are too complicated and the interfaces are
> > inconsistent with the application, especially across platform.
>
> Ahh, font aliases?  That's good point, yes.
>
> On complexity of the character selection tools, though, I think that would
> be a matter best solved by adding a basic mode to the tools, rather than
> trying to re-invent the wheel.

At least for Gnome, a request should be put in to have an option to stop the
glyph substitution/font aliasing. Its completely inappropriate for DTP work,
and I'd also say for Inkscape's pure vector use too (EPS and PDF export wont
like substituted glyphs in this sense). However, for those of us who don't
use Gnome, or arent on Linux, this doesnt help.

Craig


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Font size

Kaver-3
I am using Win2000. Inkscape 27th May 05.

It is a while since I've done much with Inkscape and I have probably set
something up incorrectly. But I don't know what.

I set up to print with Arial at font size 100. Then I print and the letters
are 20mm high.

I set up CorelDraw and do the same. The letters are 25mm high. Same with
Word.

Ie Inkscape appears to be printing out at 4/5 of the correct size. This
seems so basic that I feel I must be doing something wrong or have a setting
wrong. Any suggestions or comments?

Erik



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Re: Font size

Jon A. Cruz

On Jun 5, 2005, at 4:18 PM, Erik wrote:

Ie Inkscape appears to be printing out at 4/5 of the correct size. This
seems so basic that I feel I must be doing something wrong or have a setting
wrong. Any suggestions or comments?

Inkscape is an SVG app, and does things "SVG-style".


One of the interesting things is that SVG follows CSS size rules in that things are based on display units that may change. By default things are set to use an assumed 90 DPI value. The difference between 72 DPI and 90 DPI gives you the 4/5ths factor you're seeing.

In general, try multiplying or dividing by either 80 or 1.25.



This is a bit of a tricky area, as I believe that once we change things to follow the specs even closer, it would entail getting the DPI from the runtime display environment (though if not done properly, things would quickly devolve into chaos)
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Re: Font size

Craig Bradney
On Monday 06 June 2005 02:06, Jon A. Cruz wrote:

> On Jun 5, 2005, at 4:18 PM, Erik wrote:
> > Ie Inkscape appears to be printing out at 4/5 of the correct size.
> > This
> > seems so basic that I feel I must be doing something wrong or have
> > a setting
> > wrong. Any suggestions or comments?
>
> Inkscape is an SVG app, and does things "SVG-style".
>
>
> One of the interesting things is that SVG follows CSS size rules in
> that things are based on display units that may change. By default
> things are set to use an assumed 90 DPI value. The difference between
> 72 DPI and 90 DPI gives you the 4/5ths factor you're seeing.
>
> In general, try multiplying or dividing by either 80 or 1.25.
>
>
>
> This is a bit of a tricky area, as I believe that once we change
> things to follow the specs even closer, it would entail getting the
> DPI from the runtime display environment (though if not done
> properly, things would quickly devolve into chaos)

Which may or may not be correct depending on what the X server is thinking at
the time. If this is not correct, then you need a ruler to set up a scaling %
like in Scribus so it can be display setting independent.

Craig


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Re: Font size

Kaver-3
In reply to this post by Jon A. Cruz
Jon wrote:
Inkscape is an SVG app, and does things "SVG-style".


One of the interesting things is that SVG follows CSS size rules in that things are based on display units that may change. By default things are set to use an assumed 90 DPI value. The difference between 72 DPI and 90 DPI gives you the 4/5ths factor you're seeing.

In general, try multiplying or dividing by either 80 or 1.25.



This is a bit of a tricky area, as I believe that once we change things to follow the specs even closer, it would entail getting the DPI from the runtime display environment (though if not done properly, things would quickly devolve into chaos)
I would not use the word interesting and I'm certainly not going to mult or divide by a factor on all the different font sizes I use. I am making geological maps where there are lots of small titles, names, comments etc scattered over the map.
 
Can I change this default 90DPI to 72DPI display units anywhere? And if I can, is there anything else that that will screw up as a result? Line width etc.
 
Thanks, Erik
 
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Re: Font size

bulia byak
On 6/5/05, Erik <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Can I change this default 90DPI to 72DPI display units anywhere? And if I
> can, is there anything else that that will screw up as a result? Line width
> etc.

You don't need to know anything about DPIs. Just use one unit for
everything. The default unit in Inkscape is px; you can change that to
use pt instead. The only problem is that the font size selector does
not currently allow you to choose units, but we'll fix that
eventually.

--
bulia byak
Inkscape. Draw Freely.
http://www.inkscape.org


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Re: Font size

Kaver-3
Bulia wrote:
> You don't need to know anything about DPIs. Just use one unit for
> everything. The default unit in Inkscape is px; you can change that to
> use pt instead. The only problem is that the font size selector does
> not currently allow you to choose units, but we'll fix that
> eventually.

OK. Where do I change it? I can see units choice at

File/document preferences/page/default units
File/document preferences/page/custom canvas
File/document preferences/grid/snap units
and
File/document preferences/guides

Do I change them all? Or which? or a different one alltogether?
Erik



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Re: Font size

bulia byak
On 6/5/05, Erik <[hidden email]> wrote:
> OK. Where do I change it? I can see units choice at
>
> File/document preferences/page/default units

This one, of course.

--
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Re: Font size

MenTaLguY
In reply to this post by bulia byak
On Sun, 2005-06-05 at 21:11, bulia byak wrote:
> You don't need to know anything about DPIs. Just use one unit for
> everything. The default unit in Inkscape is px; you can change that to
> use pt instead. The only problem is that the font size selector does
> not currently allow you to choose units, but we'll fix that
> eventually.

Given that he's doing map stuff, I imagine he's using SVG paths.  

Unfortunately it's impossible to specify SVG paths in anything but px,
so you really have to stick with px.

The px/pt ratio is not going to be constant with DPI, so if things are
specified in pt they won't line up with the paths properly if rendered
with a different DPI.

-mental

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Re: Font size

bulia byak
On 6/5/05, MenTaLguY <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The px/pt ratio is not going to be constant with DPI, so if things are
> specified in pt they won't line up with the paths properly if rendered
> with a different DPI.

Do you know of any SVG renderer that really changes its px/pt ratio to
match DPI? I know of none.

--
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Re: Font size

Kaver-3
In reply to this post by bulia byak

> On 6/5/05, Erik <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > OK. Where do I change it? I can see units choice at
> >
> > File/document preferences/page/default units
>
> This one, of course.

OK. So it changes the second to pt as well and leaves the others (grid and
guides)at px.
Can I make that change sticky?

AAAARRRGGHH. Now I cannot change font size at all.
Erik



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