Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

Martin Owens-2
Alex I've moved this to the devel channel since it's not a board issue.

Reply below.

On Mon, 2017-07-24 at 15:37 +0100, Alex Valavanis wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Would it be inappropriate to make some kind of Social Media push to
> try and catch some MS Paint users now that MS have marked it for
> destruction?
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-40705466
>
> I know Paint isn't a vector editor, but there might be some casual
> sketchers who'd be interested to know what their options are :)

This is what I would do, but it's more of a blog entry:

As an Artist, the tools that we use are an important way of working. They inform the art we make, provide the feel and texture that's created from the limitations of the medium.

In software, we have a curious contemptible situation. One where your art tools can be taken away from you by a software corporation. That you were using the tool to make art is not a consideration to them, only that the costs to them of maintaining them have gotten high enough for them to cut the chord.

Recently Microsoft have decided to decommission MS Paint. It's a simple tool which has a history going back to 1985, and while it's no Gimp or Photoshop, it does have it's own style which many artists still use to great effect. But now it's being discontinued.

Inkscape had a similar problem back in it's history. Back before it was  called Inkscape. Development of a vector art tool had become too difficult for one developer, and setting up a project to collaborate is a lot of work. But there was a need from artists to continue the project and not let it die. From Artists came the continuation of the software, many many years after the original developer had stopped working on it.

It was only possible to do this because Inkscape is Free Software. Meaning it gives you, the artist, the user, the unequivocal right to own in a fundamental fashion the software tool that you use.

If you want to take Inkscape's code, and move it in a different direction, you can. Ponyscape did. If you want to continue the project on past the life of the developers currently working on it, you have that freedom. Either through developing your own code, or by hiring people to work on it for you.

The big point here is that Inkscape will never die. So long as there is an Artist that wants to draw or an engineer that wants to cut designs. There will be an Inkscape project. It can not be killed by a corporation, it can't be killed by the copyright holders, you and your friends can continue the project no matter what authority says.

It would be best if Microsoft granted the same Freedoms to their users, that we do to ours. The Free Software ideal is that users should always have these Freedoms, but for now we will have to recreate and reinvent proprietary software each time it's discontinued and encourage users to ALWAYS demand that the software they use grant freedom to them. Even if they get that software from Microsoft, Adobe or anyone else.

(For MSPaint alternatives, see http://alternativeto.net/software/microsoft-paint/?license=opensource)

Thoughts?

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

alvinpenner
also, for an alternative, see Paint.NET:
https://www.getpaint.net/

I think this program is actually better than the original MS Paint anyways.

Alvin
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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

Martin Owens-2
On Mon, 2017-07-24 at 10:14 -0700, alvinpenner wrote:
> also, for an alternative, see Paint.NET:
> https://www.getpaint.net/
>
> I think this program is actually better than the original MS Paint
> anyways.

Isn't that proprietary? It kinda defeats the point if I said "Hey look
your toys can be taken away at any time because you have no rights,
here have the other toy that gives you no rights."

Although to be fair to Paint.NET, they started out OSS (MIT) and got
walloped by loss aversion. So a 3.36 fork would be possible to
recommend, but not Paint.NET itself. (This is one of the good things
about the GPL, plagiarism for us is either helping us distribute for
free, a license violation or a trademark violation)

It's an interesting history and lesson to what can go wrong in a
project that doesn't really understand Free Software.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

C R
Do we want to be comparing Inkscape to MS Paint? I think this will
probably get us laughed at at best.
MS Paint was never meant to be professional graphics software like
Inkscape is. People who use it do so for creative irony and nostalgia.

My thought- There are plenty of FLOSS graphics editors that can
replace MS Paint, for what it does. We don't need to lower our
software to the level of a basic (long obsolete) bitmap editor to get
new users.

-C





On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Martin Owens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 2017-07-24 at 10:14 -0700, alvinpenner wrote:
>> also, for an alternative, see Paint.NET:
>> https://www.getpaint.net/
>>
>> I think this program is actually better than the original MS Paint
>> anyways.
>
> Isn't that proprietary? It kinda defeats the point if I said "Hey look
> your toys can be taken away at any time because you have no rights,
> here have the other toy that gives you no rights."
>
> Although to be fair to Paint.NET, they started out OSS (MIT) and got
> walloped by loss aversion. So a 3.36 fork would be possible to
> recommend, but not Paint.NET itself. (This is one of the good things
> about the GPL, plagiarism for us is either helping us distribute for
> free, a license violation or a trademark violation)
>
> It's an interesting history and lesson to what can go wrong in a
> project that doesn't really understand Free Software.
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens
>
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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

Bryce Harrington-3
On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 09:25:32PM +0100, C R wrote:
> Do we want to be comparing Inkscape to MS Paint? I think this will
> probably get us laughed at at best.
> MS Paint was never meant to be professional graphics software like
> Inkscape is. People who use it do so for creative irony and nostalgia.
>
> My thought- There are plenty of FLOSS graphics editors that can
> replace MS Paint, for what it does. We don't need to lower our
> software to the level of a basic (long obsolete) bitmap editor to get
> new users.

I completely agree it's a bit orthogonal to our mission, but I don't see
much harm if someone's motivated to use it as a good opportunity to do
some Inkscape marketing.  And I think Alex's intuition is probably right
that there's likely to be an increase in attention on art software in
the tech media space, that suggests it'd be a good time to put a foot
forward offering Inkscape as an option for people to consider.

Offhand, my guess is that people who rely on MS Paint are perhaps a bit
distant from our usual target audiences, but on the other hand every
budding artist has gotta start someplace.  So I'd probably de-emphasize
references to MS Paint, in favor of putting more focus on explaining
what makes Inkscape great.

I liked how Martin compared and contrasted the situation with
proprietary vs. foss software; that thinking could resonate well with
potential future community member types.  Another good compare/contrast
here could be the classic raster-vs-bitmap discussion, since MS Paint is
the rather prototypical raster app.

Bryce

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

C R
I think with everything we put out, we should consider the reputation
and image of Inkscape. MS Paint has always been a joke, and I don't
want people to think the same of Inkscape.

I can't imagine even budding artists starting out using MS Paint. It
was/is horrible third-rate joke software that even Microsoft never
advertised as being any damn good because it never was.

The only reason MS Paint was around for so long is precisely because
it was packaged with Windows.
Re - using the decommissioning of MS Paint's rotting corpse as a way
to say FLOSS is better... I think round about no one is going to
swallow that. :) Adobe's subscription model is far more compelling
thing to attack. No one uses MS paint as a serious utility. It was and
is bad software (even before the proprietary bit is taken into
consideration)- that's why it's going away - it will cause no ripples
at all in the graphic editing/illustration world, and I believe it
will not generate new users for Inkscape.

I fear it will look as if we have no new news, nothing more compelling
to broadcast than a cheap dig at an unpopular software package. To new
users it will look as if we think MS Paint is a competitor of ours,
that has been vanquished by its own evil propritary-ness. I dunno... I
just think we're better than that. :)

-C


On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:43 PM, Bryce Harrington
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 09:25:32PM +0100, C R wrote:
>> Do we want to be comparing Inkscape to MS Paint? I think this will
>> probably get us laughed at at best.
>> MS Paint was never meant to be professional graphics software like
>> Inkscape is. People who use it do so for creative irony and nostalgia.
>>
>> My thought- There are plenty of FLOSS graphics editors that can
>> replace MS Paint, for what it does. We don't need to lower our
>> software to the level of a basic (long obsolete) bitmap editor to get
>> new users.
>
> I completely agree it's a bit orthogonal to our mission, but I don't see
> much harm if someone's motivated to use it as a good opportunity to do
> some Inkscape marketing.  And I think Alex's intuition is probably right
> that there's likely to be an increase in attention on art software in
> the tech media space, that suggests it'd be a good time to put a foot
> forward offering Inkscape as an option for people to consider.
>
> Offhand, my guess is that people who rely on MS Paint are perhaps a bit
> distant from our usual target audiences, but on the other hand every
> budding artist has gotta start someplace.  So I'd probably de-emphasize
> references to MS Paint, in favor of putting more focus on explaining
> what makes Inkscape great.
>
> I liked how Martin compared and contrasted the situation with
> proprietary vs. foss software; that thinking could resonate well with
> potential future community member types.  Another good compare/contrast
> here could be the classic raster-vs-bitmap discussion, since MS Paint is
> the rather prototypical raster app.
>
> Bryce

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

C R
To clarify, I'm not saying the intent is a cheap-dig at proprietary
software... I'm just concerned that it may come off that way
considering Inkscape is a far far better application. MS paint isn't
even worth a mention. Also, we should be steering pixel-editing
enthusiasts to GIMP, Krita, etc. for pixel-editing at the very least.
Even then, I'd still hesitate to make any sort of attempt at comparing
them to MS Paint. It's like comparing a Mercedes to red wagon pull
cart. ;)

Anyway, The idea is good, just the target is just too cheap this time
to do what we'd like it to do.

-C



On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 10:45 PM, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think with everything we put out, we should consider the reputation
> and image of Inkscape. MS Paint has always been a joke, and I don't
> want people to think the same of Inkscape.
>
> I can't imagine even budding artists starting out using MS Paint. It
> was/is horrible third-rate joke software that even Microsoft never
> advertised as being any damn good because it never was.
>
> The only reason MS Paint was around for so long is precisely because
> it was packaged with Windows.
> Re - using the decommissioning of MS Paint's rotting corpse as a way
> to say FLOSS is better... I think round about no one is going to
> swallow that. :) Adobe's subscription model is far more compelling
> thing to attack. No one uses MS paint as a serious utility. It was and
> is bad software (even before the proprietary bit is taken into
> consideration)- that's why it's going away - it will cause no ripples
> at all in the graphic editing/illustration world, and I believe it
> will not generate new users for Inkscape.
>
> I fear it will look as if we have no new news, nothing more compelling
> to broadcast than a cheap dig at an unpopular software package. To new
> users it will look as if we think MS Paint is a competitor of ours,
> that has been vanquished by its own evil propritary-ness. I dunno... I
> just think we're better than that. :)
>
> -C
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 9:43 PM, Bryce Harrington
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 09:25:32PM +0100, C R wrote:
>>> Do we want to be comparing Inkscape to MS Paint? I think this will
>>> probably get us laughed at at best.
>>> MS Paint was never meant to be professional graphics software like
>>> Inkscape is. People who use it do so for creative irony and nostalgia.
>>>
>>> My thought- There are plenty of FLOSS graphics editors that can
>>> replace MS Paint, for what it does. We don't need to lower our
>>> software to the level of a basic (long obsolete) bitmap editor to get
>>> new users.
>>
>> I completely agree it's a bit orthogonal to our mission, but I don't see
>> much harm if someone's motivated to use it as a good opportunity to do
>> some Inkscape marketing.  And I think Alex's intuition is probably right
>> that there's likely to be an increase in attention on art software in
>> the tech media space, that suggests it'd be a good time to put a foot
>> forward offering Inkscape as an option for people to consider.
>>
>> Offhand, my guess is that people who rely on MS Paint are perhaps a bit
>> distant from our usual target audiences, but on the other hand every
>> budding artist has gotta start someplace.  So I'd probably de-emphasize
>> references to MS Paint, in favor of putting more focus on explaining
>> what makes Inkscape great.
>>
>> I liked how Martin compared and contrasted the situation with
>> proprietary vs. foss software; that thinking could resonate well with
>> potential future community member types.  Another good compare/contrast
>> here could be the classic raster-vs-bitmap discussion, since MS Paint is
>> the rather prototypical raster app.
>>
>> Bryce

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

Martin Owens-2
In reply to this post by C R
On Mon, 2017-07-24 at 22:45 +0100, C R wrote:
> I fear it will look as if we have no new news, nothing more
> compelling
> to broadcast than a cheap dig at an unpopular software package. To
> new
> users it will look as if we think MS Paint is a competitor of ours,
> that has been vanquished by its own evil propritary-ness. I dunno...
> I
> just think we're better than that. :)

Sounds like you want to have a crack and some news :-D

But I take your point to heart. I drafted something quite raw, so I'm
not offended if it goes nowhere.

Martin,

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

C R
>> just think we're better than that. :)
>
> Sounds like you want to have a crack and some news :-D

What, my arm-chair social media critique isn't good enough? ;)

> But I take your point to heart. I drafted something quite raw, so I'm
> not offended if it goes nowhere.

Oh there are ways of making fun of MS Paint's death and promoting
Inkscape at the same time I'm sure.  :)

If we want to convert pixel-based artists to vector, it might be good
to release an updated article about why vector graphics are more
versatile than just regular pixel data. This sort of information would
impress artists who are new to vector illustration.

It really depends on the intent. I'd be happy to look over the draft
if that's desired.

-C


>
> Martin,

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

Martin Owens-2
On Mon, 2017-07-24 at 23:25 +0100, C R wrote:
> It really depends on the intent. I'd be happy to look over the draft
> if that's desired.

Oh shoot, there goes my attempt to increase the pool of news writers.

There's a fancy hat for anyone who wants in!

Martin,

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

C R
We should make stickers out of the hats, and they can be given as a reward for the first 10/50/100 commits or contributions in their respective areas Want me to stickerize them? :)

-C

On 25 Jul 2017 12:09 a.m., "Martin Owens" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Mon, 2017-07-24 at 23:25 +0100, C R wrote:
> It really depends on the intent. I'd be happy to look over the draft
> if that's desired.

Oh shoot, there goes my attempt to increase the pool of news writers.

There's a fancy hat for anyone who wants in!

Martin,

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

Alexandre Prokoudine
In reply to this post by Martin Owens-2
On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 7:57 PM, Martin Owens wrote:

> Recently Microsoft have decided to decommission MS Paint. It's a simple tool which has a history going back to 1985, and while it's no Gimp or Photoshop, it does have it's own style which many artists still use to great effect. But now it's being discontinued.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40714395

"Microsoft suggested it would not remain on Windows 10 by default but
did say it would be available for free on the Windows Store."

Alex

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

Martin Owens-2
In reply to this post by C R
On Tue, 2017-07-25 at 07:51 +0100, C R wrote:
> We should make stickers out of the hats, and they can be given as a
> reward for the first 10/50/100 commits or contributions in their
> respective areas Want me to stickerize them? :)

Not sure. I got the ones you sent. They look nice. Although a bit
small. Gives me some good ideas for what to do next (format/size)

But as for new stickers... not sure yet.

Martin,

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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

Miguel Lopez
Let me put out some opinions. MS Paint is perfect for some pixel artists
as it does force you to use the program as a pixel art program, and
there are amazing things done in MS Paint. There aren't so much options
for those who want to make Amiga art like those found in
amiga.lychesis.net archive, and their only real option is something like
GraFX2, and that program has glaring issue of looking like it's from the
80s, but it is nothing like the other program as it automatically index
to palette when you do smoothing, and importing. Besides pixel art, MS
Paint is ok to abandon in favor of other softwares.

We should not be comparing raster and vector form, but if one wants to
move raster artist to vector programs, one might mention how vectors and
unlimited resolution is the future of art direction, and in some way,
Inkscape shows that. **Looks at the Inkscape gradient mesh painting
tool, and overlays** Likely, gradient mesh, 3d mesh and painting will
replace blocky pixels at some point when computers are very powerful to
the point where vector art can be rendered as fast as raster photographs
nowaday. NURBS is also slowly replacing polygons too for everything
besides games, and animation.


On 7/25/2017 11:12 AM, Martin Owens wrote:

> On Tue, 2017-07-25 at 07:51 +0100, C R wrote:
>> We should make stickers out of the hats, and they can be given as a
>> reward for the first 10/50/100 commits or contributions in their
>> respective areas Want me to stickerize them? :)
> Not sure. I got the ones you sent. They look nice. Although a bit
> small. Gives me some good ideas for what to do next (format/size)
>
> But as for new stickers... not sure yet.
>
> Martin,
>
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Re: [Inkscape-board] Paint is dead; long live Inkscape

C R
In reply to this post by Martin Owens-2
Agreed. I'm looking for larger stickers for the next run.
-C

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 4:12 PM, Martin Owens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Tue, 2017-07-25 at 07:51 +0100, C R wrote:
>> We should make stickers out of the hats, and they can be given as a
>> reward for the first 10/50/100 commits or contributions in their
>> respective areas Want me to stickerize them? :)
>
> Not sure. I got the ones you sent. They look nice. Although a bit
> small. Gives me some good ideas for what to do next (format/size)
>
> But as for new stickers... not sure yet.
>
> Martin,

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