Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Brynn
Developers often seem to answer, so I thought I was getting both here.  But now
copied to the devel list.

Thanks,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Owens
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 3:40 PM
To: Inkscape User Community
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

You should make sure this flare goes to the devel mailing list too.


On Thu, 2017-09-14 at 15:11 -0600, brynn wrote:

> Hi Friends,
>         Sending up a signal flare from the not-so-technially-inclined
> user
> community.  Please either explain the Scale setting and how users can
> easily
> change the Display units; or fix the UX so we can use it.
>
> Thank you so very much,
> brynn
>
>
>
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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Brynn
Thanks, Maren.  I will try to find some time to read those.  But I was really
hoping for a shorter answer.

It's not that I mind learning new things.  But if it takes that much reading to
understand a program's feature, then I think the feature needs to be redesigned,
so that users are eased into it.

(Original message posted to User list, but now copying to the devel list)

If this would help for developers or advanced users know how to answer, here is
the basic question.

How to change the display units, so that the file is using those units, and so
that the drawing is as close to the real life units as the user's screen
resolution permits (like for printing or cutting).

Also, an issue was raised in a forum, that symbols and some extensions don't
work properly if the scale is not set a certain way.  ("don't work properly"
means that the resulting sizes aren't correct.)

In this case, I mean for a new drawing in the current version of Inkscape (not
opening a file which was started in an earlier version).

Thanks again,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Maren Hachmann
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 3:49 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Suggested reading:

https://www.patreon.com/posts/units-part-i-13563546

https://www.patreon.com/posts/units-part-ii-13566508

https://www.patreon.com/posts/units-part-iii-13741251

https://www.patreon.com/posts/units-part-iv-13993147

(Articles written by Marc Jeanmougin, for his patrons on Patreon and for
the whole Inkscape community)

Maren

Am 14.09.2017 um 23:11 schrieb brynn:

> Hi Friends,
>        Sending up a signal flare from the not-so-technially-inclined
> user community.  Please either explain the Scale setting and how users
> can easily change the Display units; or fix the UX so we can use it.
>
> Thank you so very much,
> brynn
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>


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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Brynn
Sorry for the delay.  I think I'm getting it  :-)

Now, more or less understanding "user units",  I'm back at #3 of your first
reply.  And here in the middle of that paragraph....I think....is the answer I
need.

> (temporarily set display unit to px, set scale
to 1, put display unit back to whatever you need),

So when someone needs to change the Display units, so that their drawing is as
close to real world size as possible, do this:

1 -- set the desired Page Size and units  (this sets the viewBox, right?)
2 -- temporarily change Display units to px
3 -- change the Scale to 1
4 -- change the Display units to the desired unit
5 -- the Scale will automatically change to the appropriate value
6 -- leave everything else alone

If that's correct then

1 -- I'll make a new FAQ item for it (if no objections) - perhaps link to Marc's
article about it - or is there a wiki page for it?
2 -- I'm really thinking Inkscape needs to do all that internally.  I think
users should be able to simply select the unit they want, the page size they
want, and Inkscape does the rest.  May I make the bug/feature report, or is it
already planned or requested?

If that's not correct, please tell me where I'm going wrong.

Oh, one last question.

> If you only measure
your stuff with the display units (and do not use units in the code, it
should not matter (tools "should" take the scale into account, and if
some do not it's an bug

Do you mean to say that it's possible some tools are not respecting the Scale?
Or is that more of a theory.

Thanks again,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Jeanmougin
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 2:22 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

On 09/15/2017 10:00 AM, brynn wrote:
> What is a "user unit" and what do you mean by "outside coordinate
> system"? Please don't explain anything below that  unless you can't
> explain "user unit" and "outside coordinate system" otherwise.
> Hopefully once I understand those 2 things, the rest will make sense.
> But I need to go one step at a time.

The "outside coordinate system" is just the length of things upon
displaying the file, assuming one respects the given "Size" of the document.

"Inside" the file, everything is measured with the "inside" coordinate
system. This system's unit is the abstract "user unit": your document
may have a rectangle measuring 2 user unit wide and 5 user units tall,
and you can tell (in the viewBox) that your complete document is the
area between the point of coord (0,0) and the point of coord (20,50), in
user units.

They're abstract units, like when you do basic geometry in mathematics,
without units; only meaning here that 2 user units wide is 10% of the
document's width and 5user unit tall is 10% of the document's height.
Only the additional data of the "Size" can tell you what the total
height is in the "outside world", hence what 10% of it (== my 5uu of
height) are worth.

Now, the units *inside* the file (like the "cm" in my post-scriptum) are
only shortcuts for given, fixed, multiples of the user unit (by
definition, "px" is the name of that user unit and "in" is the name
given to 96 user units), but if you do not set "1 user unit is one
outside-world-pixel", they're not worth what they seem.

--
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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Brynn
In reply to this post by Brynn
Oh, well if that's the only reason, I would suggest going back to px for the
native user units!  It looks to this non-tech-oriented user like using mm for
the native units is making these things much more complicated (not to mention
confusing) than they really need to be.

Is there any reason why I can't make a feature request in LP, to revert to px?
Like is there some other reason for the change, or  we're already planning to
revert, or ???  I know it might or might not happen.  But really, just to make
the default doc match one single template -- this really is imposing a great
deal of confusion for many users!

Thanks again for taking the time to explain all this!

brynn


-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Jeanmougin
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 2:56 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units


On 09/20/2017 05:22 AM, brynn wrote:
> 1 -- I would also like to see the display unit set for px by default.
> But as far as I understand, Inkscape is now recognizing mm as the
> default unit.  I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had
> something to do with SVG standards.

Nothing. I think it's because the default template is A4 so it sort of
made sense to use millimeters since A4 is defined as 210x297 mm²

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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Brynn
In reply to this post by Brynn
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!

However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather
than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless
you happen to want an A4 page).

I'm not clear what you mean by this:

> The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.

If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it
correctly) can't they be changed?  Or do you mean that the user would have to
save a new template if they change the units?

I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the
templates too.  But need to understand that last statement (above).

Thanks Alvin :-)

-----Original Message-----
From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
typical example would be

  <rect
     style="..."
     id="rect10"
     width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
     height="88.446426"
     x="0"
     y="0.66666663" />

If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:

    <rect
       style="..."
       id="rect18"
       width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
px)
       height="357.14285"
       x="0"
       y="2.519685" />

If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg

If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
backup, just in case.)

The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.

hth,
Alvin




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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Eduard Braun

For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.

  • For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
  • For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where necessary.

On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.

Regards,
Eduard


Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1. 

AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.

Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.

Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px. 


Thanks,
TD

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!

However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).

I'm not clear what you mean by this:

The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.

If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed?  Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units?

I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too.  But need to understand that last statement (above).

Thanks Alvin :-)

-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
typical example would be

 <rect
    style="..."
    id="rect10"
    width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
    height="88.446426"
    x="0"
    y="0.66666663" />

If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:

   <rect
      style="..."
      id="rect18"
      width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
px)
      height="357.14285"
      x="0"
      y="2.519685" />

If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg

If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
backup, just in case.)

The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.

hth,
Alvin




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C R
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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

C R
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.

That's just my preference though. I will just reset the default template myself if everyone decides to go the other way.

Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the most sense.

If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always be 1mm.


My 2p
-C

On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <[hidden email]> wrote:

For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.

  • For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
  • For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where necessary.

On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.

Regards,
Eduard


Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1. 

AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.

Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.

Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px. 


Thanks,
TD

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!

However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).

I'm not clear what you mean by this:

The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.

If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed?  Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units?

I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too.  But need to understand that last statement (above).

Thanks Alvin :-)

-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
typical example would be

 <rect
    style="..."
    id="rect10"
    width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
    height="88.446426"
    x="0"
    y="0.66666663" />

If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:

   <rect
      style="..."
      id="rect18"
      width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
px)
      height="357.14285"
      x="0"
      y="2.519685" />

If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg

If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
backup, just in case.)

The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.

hth,
Alvin




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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Eduard Braun
Am 21.09.2017 um 09:39 schrieb C R:
I prefer A4 as a default with mm as the measurement (as it is). The reason is that I design stuff in Inkscape every day. I use its measurements in mm, and the default gives the user a real world size to compare too. There is no standard pixel size, so it does not make sense to me to have the default in pixels, or indeed to measure anything in pixels at all. Pixel widths are only good for exporting bitmaps, and you will be at the mercy of whatever the manufacturer of the device decided the pixel density should be.
Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).

I'm not sure if your comment on manufacturers is based on actual experience (maybe you could elaborate on that), but personally I'd feeld a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a base for production than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user units that Inkscape currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the whole SVG (which broke a lot of our export extensions and might just as well confuse import filters in other software).

Keep in mind the criticisms we got from the artists and illustrators for the last release. It's clear to me from those that the uses for Inkscape go far beyond just SVG for web. There was a whole classroom full of students who randomly happen to be using Inkscape in the next room for CNC machines. Ask them what they would prefer, and they will probably say mm makes the most sense.
I don't disagree that a mm is a useful unit for many applications (I think you misunderstood me here). I'm fine with keeping the default template being A4 (with mm measurements) and set all lengths in mm by default. What I would change is the unit length we use in the SVG - here I think we should stick with px by default (remember it can always be changed by the user if they have special needs!) as it has the least unwanted side-effects and works very well for many use cases and well for most others. I think that can't be said for the current solution (which I feel works well for some cases and badly for many others).

If we choose px as the base unit for measurement the dpi (and thus conversion to mm and other physical measurements) will change again to some other completely arbitrary increment in the future. Whereas 1mm will always be 1mm.
Well, then we rescale again... Now that we put in viewBoxes by default it's not a big deal. In the worst case we end up with what we now produce by default (scaled SVG).



My 2p
-C

On 20 Sep 2017 17:42, "Eduard Braun" <[hidden email]> wrote:

For what it's worth I also prefer a px-based default template.

  • For digital art it makes the most sense as Tyler noted.
  • For stuff that's intended to be used "on paper" it does not break anything and can in fact even avoid incompatibilities due to the viewbox scaling. Also it feels more natural to make a line 1or 2 px wide (which are useful widths for me in everyday use) instead of fiddling with fractional millimeters. If I need mm-based sizes I can also still use them where necessary.

On a related note I'm not even sure our default size of A4 is overly useful. I've yet to create content in Inkscape that would need an A4 size... For me it's either digital artwork which has some even pixel size or I'm creating graphics that are put on A4 paper and therefore need to be smaller anyway (e.g. ~ 8cm wide to fill one column). So, while we need some default (which might just as well be A4) I don't think we should assume users actually create A4 content and base our decision on that.

Regards,
Eduard


Am 20.09.2017 um 16:00 schrieb Tyler Durden:
I see no downside to having all releases/localizations use px as display units and scale=1. 

AFAICT, it breaks nothing, which cannot be said for other current defaults. Everything works and no gymnastics trying to explain units and scale to the non-technically inclined.

Even the newest users can understand how to set the document to their preferred display units. No need for typical users to change scale.

Simple rationale: svg is a web format, hence default.svg units = px. 


Thanks,
TD

On Wed, Sep 20, 2017 at 9:47 AM, brynn <[hidden email]> wrote:
Oh, I didn't know about these templates!

However, I think it's better for users to know how to use the interface, rather than use a template which only sets up the units, and not the page size (unless you happen to want an A4 page).

I'm not clear what you mean by this:

The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.

If you know how to change the units (as I've just learned how to do it correctly) can't they be changed?  Or do you mean that the user would have to save a new template if they change the units?

I'm just writing the new FAQ item right now, so I'll include this info about the templates too.  But need to understand that last statement (above).

Thanks Alvin :-)

-----Original Message----- From: alvinpenner
Sent: Wednesday, September 20, 2017 6:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

It may be worth mentioning that you can choose the document units that you
prefer when you start up Inkscape. If you use the startup template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default.svg (which is the
default), then you will find that the document units are mm. You can confirm
this by drawing a rectangle that has the width of the full page and then
using the XML editor to confirm that the width has been expressed in mm. A
typical example would be

 <rect
    style="..."
    id="rect10"
    width="210.91072" (should be 210, my hand was shaky)
    height="88.446426"
    x="0"
    y="0.66666663" />

If you prefer to use px as the document units, then use the template file
C:\Program Files (x86)\Inkscape\share\templates\default_px.svg. In this case
if you draw a rectangle that has the full width of an A4 page you will get:

   <rect
      style="..."
      id="rect18"
      width="797.14288" (should be 793.7007, which is 210mm expressed in
px)
      height="357.14285"
      x="0"
      y="2.519685" />

If you prefer to use pt as document units, then use the template file
default_pt.svg

If you want to permanently modify the startup units, then copy a file like
default_pt.svg to overwrite the file default.svg. (after first making a
backup, just in case.)

The one thing you cannot do, however, is modify the document units after
Inkscape has opened the startup file.

hth,
Alvin




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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

C R
In reply to this post by C R
> As it just came to me:
> What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new document so
> they can actually choose what fits their needs best? (Possibly with a
> checkbox "remember as default")

The user can already choose a document that best fits their needs.
File > New from Template

+1 for the "remember as default" option though.

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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

C R
Another way to look at it: A4 has a definite size, and it's one people
are familiar with.
But what should the default canvas size in pixels be? 1024x768? And
when people with virtually any new computer come to the forums because
thair machine is sporting a full HD screen, or even a 4K monitor...
"my graphics are way too small, why is the default SO SMALL!" ;)

Anyway. When people print their work off of a desktop printer, it
would be lovely if it were of reasonable size compared to the canvas.

Getting close to 50p, but there you have it. :)
-C


On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:35 AM, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> As it just came to me:
>> What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new document so
>> they can actually choose what fits their needs best? (Possibly with a
>> checkbox "remember as default")
>
> The user can already choose a document that best fits their needs.
> File > New from Template
>
> +1 for the "remember as default" option though.

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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

LucaDC
In reply to this post by Eduard Braun
Eduard Braun wrote
> Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as
> Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real
> world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size
> according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).

If this sentence was as strong as it tries to appear, the transition from 90
dpi to 96 dpi would have been a lot less painful. Oh, sorry, I was wrong:
the transition wouldn't even had been necessary!

"Pixel" is not listed in The International System of Units (SI), where mm is
(well, m of which it's a power:
http://www.bipm.org/en/measurement-units/base-units.html). So you can't say
that the definitions of pixel and mm have comparable weights and scopes.
1 mm is 1 mm. Full stop.
I agree that today a pixel can be related to a real world size unit (1/96 of
an Inch), but yesterday it wasn't so who can guarantee that tomorrow it will
still be?
SI units are there not to suffer of this uncertainty so that's what I call
_real_world_units_, not something that can be changed to fit the needs of a
so quickly evolving technology.


Eduard Braun wrote
> personally I'd feeld a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a
> base for production than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user
> units that Inkscape currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the
> whole SVG (which broke a lot of our export extensions and might just as
> well confuse import filters in other software).

If I get this sentence right, it makes me feel you've not completely
understood how a (current) mm document is made. What could be misunderstood
in a document where mm is the unit, the page is 297x210 and you have an
object with dimensions 10x10? Actually I can't see any "viewBox scaling of
the whole SVG" here, unless that's how you call the viewBox function itself.
Perhaps you're making a bit of confusion between px as 1/96 of an inch (as
we've been talking up to now) and px as user-unit (as per SVG
specifications): a user-unit is not (necessarily) 1/96 of an Inch, and
that's what the viewBox is for: nothing strange or outside SVG
specifications here so broken extensions or import filters are simply buggy.
And as far as Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px (in the SVG sense,
i.e. user-unit) is not always 1/90 or 1/96 inch anymore. At last.

Luca




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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Miguel Lopez
In reply to this post by C R
Can this be a option when one boots up Inkscape? I would love to see
document page option start up, and then I create a new document. (This
is how Illustrator and Affinity works) I'm not seeing px being useful
for anything other than exports to bitmap programs. Not all digital art
is pixel based. If I had to make bitmap images, I'd use anything other
than Inkscape or Illustrator. In rare cases, I will find myself
exporting to bitmap so that I can do my work faster.
On 9/21/2017 5:26 AM, Eduard Braun wrote:

> As it just came to me:
> What if we implemented a selection when the user creates a new
> document so they can actually choose what fits their needs best?
> (Possibly with a checkbox "remember as default")
>
> Pop up a window and ask "What content do you want to create?"
> Two options:
> - "digital art (pixel based)"
> - "content for print (mm based)"
> (I imagine a big button for each with one showing a computer display /
> smartphone and the other showing a piece of paper).
>
> Option one would create a pixel based document with a useful size
> (e.g. 800 x 600 px²).
> Option two would create a scaled document (e.g. A4) with mm units
> (i.e. the current default template)
>
> Maybe we could even add a dropdown to the latter where the user can
> select (mm, meter, inch, ... or even px)-based so most bases should be
> covered. (An inch-based default template could even further be
> specialized to be letter-sized)
>
> I think that might solve a lot of confusion and frustration around the
> whole "default" template as one default might just not be enough...
>
> Thoughts? ;-)
>
> Best Regards,
> Eduard
>
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>
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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Eduard Braun
In reply to this post by LucaDC
Am 21.09.2017 um 13:14 schrieb LucaDC:

> Eduard Braun wrote
>> Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as
>> Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real
>> world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size
>> according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).
> If this sentence was as strong as it tries to appear, the transition from 90
> dpi to 96 dpi would have been a lot less painful. Oh, sorry, I was wrong:
> the transition wouldn't even had been necessary!
>
> "Pixel" is not listed in The International System of Units (SI), where mm is
> (well, m of which it's a power:
> http://www.bipm.org/en/measurement-units/base-units.html). So you can't say
> that the definitions of pixel and mm have comparable weights and scopes.
> 1 mm is 1 mm. Full stop.
> I agree that today a pixel can be related to a real world size unit (1/96 of
> an Inch), but yesterday it wasn't so who can guarantee that tomorrow it will
> still be?
> SI units are there not to suffer of this uncertainty so that's what I call
> _real_world_units_, not something that can be changed to fit the needs of a
> so quickly evolving technology.
I don't disagree with you, a meter (why are we using mm? ;-) ) is
certainly a better measure of length than the pixel. However - while I'm
an advocate of SI myself - it's certainly not the only measure and needs
are different. Just because *you* prefer the meter does not mean other
people work the same way. You only want to offer SI units? Great! Let's
drop inches and point, too! A user wants to design a screenshot for
their full HD screen? Let's tell them to make their document 1920x1080
mm² because "1 mm will always be 1 mm" (no wait... because the px is
flawed they're probably out of luck anyway - or should they measure
their screen with a ruler... I'm confused ;-) )
Maybe you're right and with high DPI screens becoming more and more
popular it's time to say goodbye to pixel units for most content. But
for now they still have their uses and it's not for us to decide! If an
application complicates certain usage scenarios on purpose it's bound to
upset some people and leaves a bad impression behind. I don't want that.

At the very least I think we need a possibility to select the default
template via UI (I even opened a bug about that some time ago:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1673608) so users can make a
choice on their own without too much hassle.

> Eduard Braun wrote
>> personally I'd feeld a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a
>> base for production than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user
>> units that Inkscape currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the
>> whole SVG (which broke a lot of our export extensions and might just as
>> well confuse import filters in other software).
> If I get this sentence right, it makes me feel you've not completely
> understood how a (current) mm document is made. What could be misunderstood
> in a document where mm is the unit, the page is 297x210 and you have an
> object with dimensions 10x10? Actually I can't see any "viewBox scaling of
> the whole SVG" here, unless that's how you call the viewBox function itself.
> Perhaps you're making a bit of confusion between px as 1/96 of an inch (as
> we've been talking up to now) and px as user-unit (as per SVG
> specifications): a user-unit is not (necessarily) 1/96 of an Inch, and
> that's what the viewBox is for: nothing strange or outside SVG
> specifications here so broken extensions or import filters are simply buggy.
> And as far as Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px (in the SVG sense,
> i.e. user-unit) is not always 1/90 or 1/96 inch anymore. At last.
You don't have to lecture me, I'm quite familiar with what we do internally.

The problem is not so much the correctness of the SVG (I don't argue
with that) but what other software makes of it. And while you're
absolutely right that software not properly handling the viewBox
attribute should be considered broken, it does not help our users. Do
you want to tell them "hey, Inkscape is doing everything right, here,
look in the cryptic specification users should never have to care about
and see for yourself we're not to blame?" That won't help them at all...

Also the length of this thread shows how "good a job" we're doing at
hiding all those internals from the user and giving them something they
can easily work with, regardless of their specific application.

Regards,
Eduard

> Luca
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Ryan Gorley-2
Since it's now America first maybe we should use 8.5 inches by 11 inches as the default. :P

Sarcasm aside, I do find it mildly annoying to have to go into the Document Properties every time I load an instance of Inkscape to change it (almost always to pixels). I know this can be changed in the config directory, but being able to change the default page size and units in the GUI seems like a reasonable feature. Alternatively (or additionally) presenting the Document Properties dialog on startup is the way many graphics applications handle this. I doubt we'll find any size/unit combo that makes everyone happy.

Ryan Gorley
Managing Partner | Dijt

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 9:59 AM, Eduard Braun <[hidden email]> wrote:
Am 21.09.2017 um 13:14 schrieb LucaDC:
Eduard Braun wrote
Hehe, we're back to the question "what is one pixel" and as far as
Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px is 1/96 inch, so it is a real
world size and this pixel size in fact *is* the standard pixel size
according to CSS2. Y'all should really read Mc's posts on units. ;-).
If this sentence was as strong as it tries to appear, the transition from 90
dpi to 96 dpi would have been a lot less painful. Oh, sorry, I was wrong:
the transition wouldn't even had been necessary!

"Pixel" is not listed in The International System of Units (SI), where mm is
(well, m of which it's a power:
http://www.bipm.org/en/measurement-units/base-units.html). So you can't say
that the definitions of pixel and mm have comparable weights and scopes.
1 mm is 1 mm. Full stop.
I agree that today a pixel can be related to a real world size unit (1/96 of
an Inch), but yesterday it wasn't so who can guarantee that tomorrow it will
still be?
SI units are there not to suffer of this uncertainty so that's what I call
_real_world_units_, not something that can be changed to fit the needs of a
so quickly evolving technology.
I don't disagree with you, a meter (why are we using mm? ;-) ) is certainly a better measure of length than the pixel. However - while I'm an advocate of SI myself - it's certainly not the only measure and needs are different. Just because *you* prefer the meter does not mean other people work the same way. You only want to offer SI units? Great! Let's drop inches and point, too! A user wants to design a screenshot for their full HD screen? Let's tell them to make their document 1920x1080 mm² because "1 mm will always be 1 mm" (no wait... because the px is flawed they're probably out of luck anyway - or should they measure their screen with a ruler... I'm confused ;-) )
Maybe you're right and with high DPI screens becoming more and more popular it's time to say goodbye to pixel units for most content. But for now they still have their uses and it's not for us to decide! If an application complicates certain usage scenarios on purpose it's bound to upset some people and leaves a bad impression behind. I don't want that.

At the very least I think we need a possibility to select the default template via UI (I even opened a bug about that some time ago: https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1673608) so users can make a choice on their own without too much hassle.

Eduard Braun wrote
personally I'd feeld a lot safer to use a px-based (unscaled) SVG as a
base for production than to rely on some SVG with millimeters as user
units that Inkscape currently implements via a viewBox scaling of the
whole SVG (which broke a lot of our export extensions and might just as
well confuse import filters in other software).
If I get this sentence right, it makes me feel you've not completely
understood how a (current) mm document is made. What could be misunderstood
in a document where mm is the unit, the page is 297x210 and you have an
object with dimensions 10x10? Actually I can't see any "viewBox scaling of
the whole SVG" here, unless that's how you call the viewBox function itself.
Perhaps you're making a bit of confusion between px as 1/96 of an inch (as
we've been talking up to now) and px as user-unit (as per SVG
specifications): a user-unit is not (necessarily) 1/96 of an Inch, and
that's what the viewBox is for: nothing strange or outside SVG
specifications here so broken extensions or import filters are simply buggy.
And as far as Inkscape (since 0.92) is concerned 1 px (in the SVG sense,
i.e. user-unit) is not always 1/90 or 1/96 inch anymore. At last.
You don't have to lecture me, I'm quite familiar with what we do internally.

The problem is not so much the correctness of the SVG (I don't argue with that) but what other software makes of it. And while you're absolutely right that software not properly handling the viewBox attribute should be considered broken, it does not help our users. Do you want to tell them "hey, Inkscape is doing everything right, here, look in the cryptic specification users should never have to care about and see for yourself we're not to blame?" That won't help them at all...

Also the length of this thread shows how "good a job" we're doing at hiding all those internals from the user and giving them something they can easily work with, regardless of their specific application.

Regards,
Eduard


Luca




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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

LucaDC
In reply to this post by Eduard Braun
Eduard Braun wrote
> However - while I'm an advocate of SI myself - it's certainly not the only
> measure and needs are different. Just because *you* prefer the meter does
> not mean other people work the same way.

I didn't want to say that mm is better than px. mm is better than px if you
are speaking of real world measures; px has proven to be a bad real world
measure. But if you draw an icon you should use px not mm, of course.


Eduard Braun wrote
> You only want to offer SI units? Great! Let's
> drop inches and point, too! A user wants to design a screenshot for
> their full HD screen? Let's tell them to make their document 1920x1080
> mm² because "1 mm will always be 1 mm" (no wait... because the px is
> flawed they're probably out of luck anyway - or should they measure
> their screen with a ruler... I'm confused ;-) )

No, I don't only want to offer SI units, of course. :)
Why did you think that?


Eduard Braun wrote
> If an application complicates certain usage scenarios on purpose it's
> bound to  upset some people and leaves a bad impression behind. I don't
> want that.

Me too.


Eduard Braun wrote
> Do  you want to tell them "hey, Inkscape is doing everything right, here,
> look in the cryptic specification users should never have to care about
> and see for yourself we're not to blame?" That won't help them at all...

Are you saying that some users make drawings in mm and expect the SVG to
internally store numbers in 1/96 inches? Personally I find this a "cryptic
specification users should never have to care about", not the opposite.
Anyway, if it's like this, the px template should fix everything. Do people
need an A4_in_px template?

Luca




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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Eduard Braun
Am 21.09.2017 um 19:11 schrieb LucaDC:
> No, I don't only want to offer SI units, of course. :)
> Why did you think that?
Your mail sounded a lot as if you were suggesting the px was a unit that
should be avoided.

> Are you saying that some users make drawings in mm and expect the SVG to
> internally store numbers in 1/96 inches? Personally I find this a "cryptic
> specification users should never have to care about", not the opposite.
> Anyway, if it's like this, the px template should fix everything. Do people
> need an A4_in_px template?
It's cryptic, but it works. The default SVG user unit is 1 px, so even
if I use broken software it will work, so it is a workable compromise
for me to use mm in UI but store px in the SVG. As users should never be
required to look *inside* the SVG they will not be affected by this at all.

>
> Luca
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Maximilian Gaukler
In reply to this post by Eduard Braun
Am 21.09.2017 um 11:14 schrieb Eduard Braun:
> I'm not sure if your comment on manufacturers is based on actual
> experience (maybe you could elaborate on that),

I'd like to contribute my experience to this discussion:

Corel/Illustrator/Inkscape are important tools to create drawings for 2D
lasercutting and sometimes outline milling, as a full-blown 2D-CAD
program is too complicated for novice users and unsuitable for
decorative shapes or art (text, bezier curves, path editing).

For those who haven't seen it yet, this is lasercutting:
http://www.cutlasercut.com/getting-started/what-is-laser-cutting-laser-cutting-process
And this is how people use inkscape for it:
http://www.cutlasercut.com/resources/drawing-guidelines/styles-examples

Lasercutter manufacturers tend to suggest Corel Draw, but that costs
money and is not available for Linux. Inkscape works good enough for the
casual or hobbyist user. During the last five years I've seen almost all
possible values of scaling errors between Illustrator, Inkscape and the
open source lasercutting software VisiCut, but since 0.92 at least
Inkscape does everything right.

VisiCut uses SVG as import format; if a file contains no viewbox, it has
to fall back to guessing the DPI based on "Inkscape"/"Illustrator"
comments in the SVG. Switching between Inkscape and Illustrator may
cause scaling errors, as Illustrator is (sometimes?) too stupid to
import/export standards-compliant SVGs.

It is always annoying to have px as the default *measurement* unit in
the GUI; Corel Draw also has mm as the default. The SVG-internal units
don't matter, except for cooperation with other software which is too
stupid to parse the viewbox and assumes some fixed DPI (often 72 and not
96). Changing the internal units is annoying, because suddenly users
need to remember a different scaling factor to fix up the broken import
of whatever driver they use.

If I could choose the defaults, I would therefore vote for mm in the GUI
and 96-DPI-pixels in the SVG internal units (plus viewbox, just as it
was in 0.92). This should also match the defaults of Corel/Illustrator,
except maybe for their arbitrary choice of DPI.

Please don't add any more question dialogs that the average user doesn't
understand, as the current DPI-conversion one is already enough (but was
unavoidable).

Regards,

Max

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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

TylerDurden
In reply to this post by Brynn
Greetings all,

 A universal default.svg with units px and scale=1 provides a simple single solution to a number of issues:

- Resolves broken extensions and features like symbols and outset/inset, etc.
- No need for users to consider scale, they just set the display units and work.
- No need to tailor localizations  with in/96, mm/3.77953.
- Fewer bug reports for scale and localization issues.
- Neophytes are less likely to abandon Inkscape as confusing or complicated.

That's a lot of benefit, for what could be relatively little effort.

Like with any graphics or CAD application, users should be familiar with setting document units when starting to work. This is the most basic of best-practices.

Even making a template is not difficult, but a button/tool to save the current document as a template would be very handy.

Regards,
TD



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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

Maren Hachmann
Am 21.09.2017 um 22:11 schrieb Tyler Durden:

> Greetings all,
>
>  A universal default.svg with units px and scale=1 provides a simple
> single solution to a number of issues:
>
> - Resolves broken extensions and features like symbols and outset/inset,
> etc.
> - No need for users to consider scale, they just set the display units
> and work.
> - No need to tailor localizations  with in/96, mm/3.77953.
> - Fewer bug reports for scale and localization issues.
> - Neophytes are less likely to abandon Inkscape as confusing or complicated.
>
> That's a lot of benefit, for what could be relatively little effort.
>
> Like with any graphics or CAD application, users should be familiar with
> setting document units when starting to work. This is the most basic of
> best-practices.
>
> Even making a template is not difficult, but a button/tool to save the
> current document as a template would be very handy.
- That button will exist in 0.93 (see attachment).

Maren

> Regards,
> TD
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Inkscape-user] the Scale setting and Display units

C R
In reply to this post by Eduard Braun



I don't disagree with you, a meter (why are we using mm? ;-)

Because no one measures A4 paper in fractions of a meter when you can have nice precise integer values. :) Part of the nice thing about the metric system.

A user wants to design a screenshot for their full HD screen? Let's tell them to make their document 1920x1080 mm² because "1 mm will always be 1 mm"

Of your output is a particular pixel value, by all means set the units to pixels for your template/export. I don't think anyone is arguing that it shouldn't be allowed at all. That's quite different from having it be the default.

But for now they still have their uses and it's not for us to decide!

I rather think it is. :) But again, no one is suggesting it be disallowed, just not be the default. If the user doesn't care at all about the physical size of the output, pixels are just fine. It's trying to assign a set physical value to the pixel value that has gotten our round pegs stuck in square holes.

 
At the very least I think we need a possibility to select the default template via UI (I even opened a bug about that some time ago: https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/1673608) so users can make a choice on their own without too much hassle.

Agreed. +1


-C


Regards,
Eduard


Luca




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