The SVG blues

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The SVG blues

Donn Ingle
Seems SVG is more and more invisible to the big companies. Here's sad tale of Amelia Bellamy-Royds's experiences with SVG and its seeming demise.
(http://codepen.io/AmeliaBR/post/me-and-svg)

I wonder how the Inkscape devs (et al.) feel about this. Could Inkscape not take a new route, perhaps bake-in some new features*, now that the SVG standards seem to be moot?

*
Multiple pages in one file ­— and export to multi-page PDFs.
A real symbol system — within and between documents.
Custom colours that don't rely on that fake gradient trick (And make them work between documents too!)
Animation time lines.
Output to gif, video and so forth. Perhaps to HTML5 Canvas with some js framework too.
Scripting, Blender-style, right there in the app. In Python and JS perhaps.
Opening of Gimp native files (xcf) into layers, perhaps.
Use of 3D objects and materials, from Blender (say) directly in the canvas — some kind of OLE layer thing.

I am sure there are many more.

I think Inkscape could have, by now, matched what Flash, Freehand and Corel et al. had 20 years ago! It did not go there because it, honourably, stuck to the SVG standards.

Inkscape is the best thing we have for graphic design on Linux (at least), but it's still way too primitive. Could we dare to think bigger? Start our own standard?

Just wondering. Is this a disaster or an opportunity?

/d

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Re: The SVG blues

William Adams
I'd be fine with Inkscape for graphic design use if it would just write out a CMYK PDF w/o jumping through hoops.

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 10:06 AM, Donn Ingle <[hidden email]> wrote:
Seems SVG is more and more invisible to the big companies. Here's sad tale of Amelia Bellamy-Royds's experiences with SVG and its seeming demise.
(http://codepen.io/AmeliaBR/post/me-and-svg)

I wonder how the Inkscape devs (et al.) feel about this. Could Inkscape not take a new route, perhaps bake-in some new features*, now that the SVG standards seem to be moot?

*
Multiple pages in one file ­— and export to multi-page PDFs.
A real symbol system — within and between documents.
Custom colours that don't rely on that fake gradient trick (And make them work between documents too!)
Animation time lines.
Output to gif, video and so forth. Perhaps to HTML5 Canvas with some js framework too.
Scripting, Blender-style, right there in the app. In Python and JS perhaps.
Opening of Gimp native files (xcf) into layers, perhaps.
Use of 3D objects and materials, from Blender (say) directly in the canvas — some kind of OLE layer thing.

I am sure there are many more.

I think Inkscape could have, by now, matched what Flash, Freehand and Corel et al. had 20 years ago! It did not go there because it, honourably, stuck to the SVG standards.

Inkscape is the best thing we have for graphic design on Linux (at least), but it's still way too primitive. Could we dare to think bigger? Start our own standard?

Just wondering. Is this a disaster or an opportunity?

/d

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Re: The SVG blues

doctormo
In reply to this post by Donn Ingle
This is more of an inkscape-devel discussion. But I'll add some
thoughts here.

When SVG 1.1 was years and years old and no one except maybe Opera was
doing anything with it at all, the Inkscape project added features,
some from SVG 1.2 (flowing text etc), some from hacks (like the
gradient stops) and some we just made whole cloth from our own xml
namespace.

The problem comes when the SVG 2.0 specification really got going. We
were left holding features which we'd probably have to keep being able
to open, but other browsers and editors wouldn't ever be able to.

That's the core of the problem with doing things yourself.

What we lack here is a huge amount of developer time. We could do with
having a whole brigade of selfless expert developers who follow
instructions and produce amazing work. We'd also like it for free. This
really is not realistic. We have instead is a small but amazing team of
fairly even handed developers who follow their own passion projects and
do it for sometimes free and sometimes outside contracts in a complex
real world sort of way.

Making the call to add a feature is actually the fairly easy part. I
have a plan for multi-page support using groups and a couple of
inkscape attributes, but I don't have the developers to put it
together. It's the kind of thing where a whip round in a hat would
bring in a pile of gold enough to hire someone to do the work, but even
doing the collection is work and that's a catch-22.

What we need is more inkscape-users who can really get involved in the
project. Not development tasks (unless you want to ;-)) but some of
these other tasks. Community projects that involve communication, news,
asking for money, doing bug management. There's a lot out there, but a
small chunk each and we'd have a more robust structure to build the
next inkscape from.

So come join inkscape, your svg editor needs you.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

P.S. For animation, everyone should be paying attention to AniGen.org
that's a single developer doing a strong job of putting an animation
editor together.

On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 16:06 +0200, Donn Ingle wrote:

> Seems SVG is more and more invisible to the big companies. Here's sad
> tale of Amelia Bellamy-Royds's experiences with SVG and its seeming
> demise.
> (http://codepen.io/AmeliaBR/post/me-and-svg)
>
> I wonder how the Inkscape devs (et al.) feel about this. Could
> Inkscape not take a new route, perhaps bake-in some new features*,
> now that the SVG standards seem to be moot?
>
> * 
> Multiple pages in one file ­— and export to multi-page PDFs.
> A real symbol system — within and between documents. 
> Custom colours that don't rely on that fake gradient trick (And make
> them work between documents too!)
> Animation time lines.
> Output to gif, video and so forth. Perhaps to HTML5 Canvas with some
> js framework too. 
> Scripting, Blender-style, right there in the app. In Python and JS
> perhaps.
> Opening of Gimp native files (xcf) into layers, perhaps.
> Use of 3D objects and materials, from Blender (say) directly in the
> canvas — some kind of OLE layer thing.
>
> I am sure there are many more.
>
> I think Inkscape could have, by now, matched what Flash, Freehand and
> Corel et al. had 20 years ago! It did not go there because it,
> honourably, stuck to the SVG standards.
>
> Inkscape is the best thing we have for graphic design on Linux (at
> least), but it's still way too primitive. Could we dare to think
> bigger? Start our own standard?
>
> Just wondering. Is this a disaster or an opportunity?
>
> /d
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user

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Re: The SVG blues

C R
There is also plenty to fix before things like wishlist items get attention. The text handling system and gradient banding issues, etc.

All new features should probably take a backseat while what is already there is fixed.

-C

On 21 Apr 2017 4:41 p.m., "Martin Owens" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is more of an inkscape-devel discussion. But I'll add some
thoughts here.

When SVG 1.1 was years and years old and no one except maybe Opera was
doing anything with it at all, the Inkscape project added features,
some from SVG 1.2 (flowing text etc), some from hacks (like the
gradient stops) and some we just made whole cloth from our own xml
namespace.

The problem comes when the SVG 2.0 specification really got going. We
were left holding features which we'd probably have to keep being able
to open, but other browsers and editors wouldn't ever be able to.

That's the core of the problem with doing things yourself.

What we lack here is a huge amount of developer time. We could do with
having a whole brigade of selfless expert developers who follow
instructions and produce amazing work. We'd also like it for free. This
really is not realistic. We have instead is a small but amazing team of
fairly even handed developers who follow their own passion projects and
do it for sometimes free and sometimes outside contracts in a complex
real world sort of way.

Making the call to add a feature is actually the fairly easy part. I
have a plan for multi-page support using groups and a couple of
inkscape attributes, but I don't have the developers to put it
together. It's the kind of thing where a whip round in a hat would
bring in a pile of gold enough to hire someone to do the work, but even
doing the collection is work and that's a catch-22.

What we need is more inkscape-users who can really get involved in the
project. Not development tasks (unless you want to ;-)) but some of
these other tasks. Community projects that involve communication, news,
asking for money, doing bug management. There's a lot out there, but a
small chunk each and we'd have a more robust structure to build the
next inkscape from.

So come join inkscape, your svg editor needs you.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

P.S. For animation, everyone should be paying attention to AniGen.org
that's a single developer doing a strong job of putting an animation
editor together.

On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 16:06 +0200, Donn Ingle wrote:
> Seems SVG is more and more invisible to the big companies. Here's sad
> tale of Amelia Bellamy-Royds's experiences with SVG and its seeming
> demise.
> (http://codepen.io/AmeliaBR/post/me-and-svg)
>
> I wonder how the Inkscape devs (et al.) feel about this. Could
> Inkscape not take a new route, perhaps bake-in some new features*,
> now that the SVG standards seem to be moot?
>
> * 
> Multiple pages in one file ­— and export to multi-page PDFs.
> A real symbol system — within and between documents. 
> Custom colours that don't rely on that fake gradient trick (And make
> them work between documents too!)
> Animation time lines.
> Output to gif, video and so forth. Perhaps to HTML5 Canvas with some
> js framework too. 
> Scripting, Blender-style, right there in the app. In Python and JS
> perhaps.
> Opening of Gimp native files (xcf) into layers, perhaps.
> Use of 3D objects and materials, from Blender (say) directly in the
> canvas — some kind of OLE layer thing.
>
> I am sure there are many more.
>
> I think Inkscape could have, by now, matched what Flash, Freehand and
> Corel et al. had 20 years ago! It did not go there because it,
> honourably, stuck to the SVG standards.
>
> Inkscape is the best thing we have for graphic design on Linux (at
> least), but it's still way too primitive. Could we dare to think
> bigger? Start our own standard?
>
> Just wondering. Is this a disaster or an opportunity?
>
> /d
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user

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Re: The SVG blues

Gary Hawkins-2
Also remember a lot of people use inkscape to produce SVG files for their (vinyl) cutting machines so let's NOT loose that ability or change it too much so they stop working with them.

Added features are good but SVG is not just for web browsers

Gaz

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Re: The SVG blues

C R
Inkscape should always be able to export to svg (even if it is not the
future of the inkscape construction format). So people who use svg for
things should never worry that inkscape will stop being able to
handle/produce svgs.



On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Gary Hawkins <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also remember a lot of people use inkscape to produce SVG files for their
> (vinyl) cutting machines so let's NOT loose that ability or change it too
> much so they stop working with them.
>
> Added features are good but SVG is not just for web browsers
>
> Gaz
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>

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Re: The SVG blues

Gary Hawkins-2
good to know, thanks

On 21 April 2017 at 17:36, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
Inkscape should always be able to export to svg (even if it is not the
future of the inkscape construction format). So people who use svg for
things should never worry that inkscape will stop being able to
handle/produce svgs.


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Re: The SVG blues

Arlo James Barnes
In reply to this post by C R
On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 9:53 AM, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
There is also plenty to fix before things like wishlist items get attention.
[...]
All new features should probably take a backseat while what is already there is fixed.

But if Martin is right and a lot of the features that come from volunteer dev work are "passion projects", then those work hours will come in whichever order anyway, regardless of priority. Anyway, there is plenty in the OP wishlist that is accomplishable now or later without abandoning (even a troubled) web standard.

As for the linked blog post,
I've promised them that I'll write up a summary of the issues as I see them. This post was supposed to be that, but that'll have to be something separate instead.
This will be more convincing to me about the future of open vector formats.

Arlo

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Re: The SVG blues

doctormo
In reply to this post by Gary Hawkins-2
On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 17:24 +0100, Gary Hawkins wrote:
> Also remember a lot of people use inkscape to produce SVG files for
> their (vinyl) cutting machines so let's NOT loose that ability or
> change it too much so they stop working with them.
>
> Added features are good but SVG is not just for web browsers

Would you be one of those people Gaz?

I'm looking to build a sub-community of inkscape users-who-make things,
so we have a central place to go for plugins, help and testing of new
releases.

But the project would need someone to pull it together. If you know
anyone, or are someone, do email me as I think it's something that
would really help.

Best Regards, Martin Owens 

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Re: The SVG blues

Abrolag
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:57:27 -0400
Martin Owens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 17:24 +0100, Gary Hawkins wrote:
> > Also remember a lot of people use inkscape to produce SVG files for
> > their (vinyl) cutting machines so let's NOT loose that ability or
> > change it too much so they stop working with them.
> >
> > Added features are good but SVG is not just for web browsers  
>
> Would you be one of those people Gaz?
>
> I'm looking to build a sub-community of inkscape users-who-make things,
> so we have a central place to go for plugins, help and testing of new
> releases.
>
> But the project would need someone to pull it together. If you know
> anyone, or are someone, do email me as I think it's something that
> would really help.
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens 

Just coming out of 'lurk' mode briefly :)

I use Inkscape for everything from electronic schematics to scaled layouts of
machine control panels.

A couple of years ago I also designed my entire kitchen using Inkscape, and the
cabinet maker was impressed with how well it actually fitted.

P.S.
My house was built circa 1880 and there isn't a square corner or straight wall
anywhere in it.

--
W J G

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Re: The SVG blues

C R
All of these are great idea for inkscape. It's a fantastic multiple for everything from package design, to industrial design (I use it for both professionally), and devs have been great about adding and improving features that make it more useful across the board.

It's only going to get better, and thanks to everyone for the support. :)

On 21 Apr 2017 7:13 p.m., "Abrolag" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:57:27 -0400
Martin Owens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 17:24 +0100, Gary Hawkins wrote:
> > Also remember a lot of people use inkscape to produce SVG files for
> > their (vinyl) cutting machines so let's NOT loose that ability or
> > change it too much so they stop working with them.
> >
> > Added features are good but SVG is not just for web browsers
>
> Would you be one of those people Gaz?
>
> I'm looking to build a sub-community of inkscape users-who-make things,
> so we have a central place to go for plugins, help and testing of new
> releases.
>
> But the project would need someone to pull it together. If you know
> anyone, or are someone, do email me as I think it's something that
> would really help.
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens 

Just coming out of 'lurk' mode briefly :)

I use Inkscape for everything from electronic schematics to scaled layouts of
machine control panels.

A couple of years ago I also designed my entire kitchen using Inkscape, and the
cabinet maker was impressed with how well it actually fitted.

P.S.
My house was built circa 1880 and there isn't a square corner or straight wall
anywhere in it.

--
W J G

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Re: The SVG blues

Donn Ingle
In reply to this post by doctormo
I understand all too well, Martin. The real-world restrictions on resources and people make any free software we have truly special.

I guess the standardizing of SVG is in a similar bind. I can't believe there are big companies, drowning in dollars, who can't be bothered. It's a failure of the commercial/libre hybrid, which really has its own worst enemy for a roommate.

 The Inkscape we have now is better than nothing, but is that enough? Can the devs not shuck the limitations of an external standard — one that is drying up fast?

What if the devs could dream?

Perhaps the Inkscape community could draft a new Standard Graphics Language? Take all the amazing knowledge and detailed work that has gone into SVG as a foundation. It's not like browsers and commercial companies give a rat's for it, so why pander to their hypothetical futures?

(I'm not saying break basic SVG that has some web foothold. I doubt Inkscape as a web SVG tool — with all the extra stuff like css, animations, events and js that the web demands, but here's the thing: if SVG is gonna die, then so will Inkscape if it's correlated to it.)

In a way, this kibosh of SVG is like a brake pedal on libre innovation. We can't proceed because we want to play by the rules, but we allow those rules to be set by commercial software. They can streak-ahead, patenting and lawyering as they go, and they can tap the brakes on us any time they like.

tl;dr : The SVG standard is a boon, and an impediment. Let's own it and redirect into a future without a knife in the back!

Am I completely off track?

/d




On 21 April 2017 at 17:39, Martin Owens <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is more of an inkscape-devel discussion. But I'll add some
thoughts here.

When SVG 1.1 was years and years old and no one except maybe Opera was
doing anything with it at all, the Inkscape project added features,
some from SVG 1.2 (flowing text etc), some from hacks (like the
gradient stops) and some we just made whole cloth from our own xml
namespace.

The problem comes when the SVG 2.0 specification really got going. We
were left holding features which we'd probably have to keep being able
to open, but other browsers and editors wouldn't ever be able to.

That's the core of the problem with doing things yourself.

What we lack here is a huge amount of developer time. We could do with
having a whole brigade of selfless expert developers who follow
instructions and produce amazing work. We'd also like it for free. This
really is not realistic. We have instead is a small but amazing team of
fairly even handed developers who follow their own passion projects and
do it for sometimes free and sometimes outside contracts in a complex
real world sort of way.

Making the call to add a feature is actually the fairly easy part. I
have a plan for multi-page support using groups and a couple of
inkscape attributes, but I don't have the developers to put it
together. It's the kind of thing where a whip round in a hat would
bring in a pile of gold enough to hire someone to do the work, but even
doing the collection is work and that's a catch-22.

What we need is more inkscape-users who can really get involved in the
project. Not development tasks (unless you want to ;-)) but some of
these other tasks. Community projects that involve communication, news,
asking for money, doing bug management. There's a lot out there, but a
small chunk each and we'd have a more robust structure to build the
next inkscape from.

So come join inkscape, your svg editor needs you.

Best Regards, Martin Owens

P.S. For animation, everyone should be paying attention to AniGen.org
that's a single developer doing a strong job of putting an animation
editor together.

On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 16:06 +0200, Donn Ingle wrote:
> Seems SVG is more and more invisible to the big companies. Here's sad
> tale of Amelia Bellamy-Royds's experiences with SVG and its seeming
> demise.
> (http://codepen.io/AmeliaBR/post/me-and-svg)
>
> I wonder how the Inkscape devs (et al.) feel about this. Could
> Inkscape not take a new route, perhaps bake-in some new features*,
> now that the SVG standards seem to be moot?
>
> * 
> Multiple pages in one file ­— and export to multi-page PDFs.
> A real symbol system — within and between documents. 
> Custom colours that don't rely on that fake gradient trick (And make
> them work between documents too!)
> Animation time lines.
> Output to gif, video and so forth. Perhaps to HTML5 Canvas with some
> js framework too. 
> Scripting, Blender-style, right there in the app. In Python and JS
> perhaps.
> Opening of Gimp native files (xcf) into layers, perhaps.
> Use of 3D objects and materials, from Blender (say) directly in the
> canvas — some kind of OLE layer thing.
>
> I am sure there are many more.
>
> I think Inkscape could have, by now, matched what Flash, Freehand and
> Corel et al. had 20 years ago! It did not go there because it,
> honourably, stuck to the SVG standards.
>
> Inkscape is the best thing we have for graphic design on Linux (at
> least), but it's still way too primitive. Could we dare to think
> bigger? Start our own standard?
>
> Just wondering. Is this a disaster or an opportunity?
>
> /d
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
> -----------
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user

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Re: The SVG blues

Donn Ingle
In reply to this post by C R
I agree. In 2008, I used it to plan the top-view of my house! I printed it all out on multiple A4 pages and taped them together for the builder. Poor bugger. :D

Awesome app. One of the jewels in the libre crown. No doubt.

/d

On 21 April 2017 at 20:20, C R <[hidden email]> wrote:
All of these are great idea for inkscape. It's a fantastic multiple for everything from package design, to industrial design (I use it for both professionally), and devs have been great about adding and improving features that make it more useful across the board.

It's only going to get better, and thanks to everyone for the support. :)

On 21 Apr 2017 7:13 p.m., "Abrolag" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 13:57:27 -0400
Martin Owens <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 17:24 +0100, Gary Hawkins wrote:
> > Also remember a lot of people use inkscape to produce SVG files for
> > their (vinyl) cutting machines so let's NOT loose that ability or
> > change it too much so they stop working with them.
> >
> > Added features are good but SVG is not just for web browsers
>
> Would you be one of those people Gaz?
>
> I'm looking to build a sub-community of inkscape users-who-make things,
> so we have a central place to go for plugins, help and testing of new
> releases.
>
> But the project would need someone to pull it together. If you know
> anyone, or are someone, do email me as I think it's something that
> would really help.
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens 

Just coming out of 'lurk' mode briefly :)

I use Inkscape for everything from electronic schematics to scaled layouts of
machine control panels.

A couple of years ago I also designed my entire kitchen using Inkscape, and the
cabinet maker was impressed with how well it actually fitted.

P.S.
My house was built circa 1880 and there isn't a square corner or straight wall
anywhere in it.

--
W J G

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Re: The SVG blues

doctormo
On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 20:52 +0200, Donn Ingle wrote:
> I agree. In 2008, I used it to plan the top-view of my house! I
> printed it all out on multiple A4 pages and taped them together for
> the builder. Poor bugger. :D
>
> Awesome app. One of the jewels in the libre crown. No doubt.

Maybe we can all share our house plans in an inkscape.org gallery ;-)
sounds like we've all done it.

Martin,

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Re: The SVG blues

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Donn Ingle
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 16:06:24 +0200
Donn Ingle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Seems SVG is more and more invisible to the big companies. Here's sad
> tale of Amelia Bellamy-Royds's experiences with SVG and its seeming
> demise. (http://codepen.io/AmeliaBR/post/me-and-svg)
>
> I wonder how the Inkscape devs (et al.) feel about this. Could
> Inkscape not take a new route, perhaps bake-in some new features*,
> now that the SVG standards seem to be moot?

I'm very satified with Inkscape. I use it for simple drawings on
Troubleshooters.Com, and in the books I sell. Inkscape-authored
graphics have tiny byte counts, and look great at any magnification. I
use it to fill in PDFs. My course diploma maker uses an Inscape-drawn
SVG file as a template with tokens replaced according to information in
a YAML file. I use Inkscape to create all sorts of other templates for
other automation. My form-letter generator is Inkscape based.

>
> *
> Multiple pages in one file

Put all the files in one directory for convenience, play them back in
an HTML file that's created programmatically with a 50 line Python file.

> ­— and export to multi-page PDFs.

LaTeX


> A real symbol system — within and *between *documents.
> Custom colours that don't rely on that fake gradient trick (And make
> them work between documents too!)

Not sure what you mean here: I can implement any color that's
describeable as #RRGGBB.

> Animation time lines.

Sounds kind of niche to me, considering that SVG1 is for images

> Output to gif,

convert test.svg test.gif


> video and so forth. Perhaps to HTML5 Canvas with some

This seems to be beyond the mandate of Inkscape, and yet, check out
this page:

http://www.creativebloq.com/inspiration/8-great-examples-of-graphic-design-portfolios

> js framework too.

Why?

> Scripting, Blender-style, right there in the app.

"Right there in the app" is the entire issue I have with all of this.
You have a perfectly good SVG file that secondary programs can
manipulate to their heart's content. The minute Inscape becomes an SVG
superset or SVG-noncompliant, this very valuable feature goes away.

> In Python and JS
> perhaps. Opening of Gimp native files (xcf) into layers, perhaps.
> Use of 3D objects and materials, from Blender (say) directly in the
> canvas — some kind of OLE layer thing.

Where do I start?

The preceding features, if added to Inkscape itself instead of as
separate programs to work on the SVG file, would add tons of complexity
to Inkscape. Complexity means bugs, instability, and all too often
incompatibility.

Features have value only to the extent that they bestow benefits. I
haven't seen benefits attached to the preceding features, but I'd
expect that each such benefit accommodates only a small percentage of
Inkscape users. And a lot of these features could be implemented as
separate programs that operate on the SVG file. Doing it that way
leaves Inkscape simple, and each feature's program is simple. Few bugs.

OLE? Are you kidding? Some who use Inkscape do it on Linux, where
simplicity is a virtue.

> I am sure there are many more.
>
> I think Inkscape could have, by now, matched what Flash, Freehand and
> Corel et al. had 20 years ago!

That 20 years point is a bit of an ad-hominem, don't you think?

> It did not go there because it,
> honourably, stuck to the SVG standards.

Yeah. That's why I can put an Inkscape-created SVG on
Troubleshooters.Com, and anybody with a halfway modern browser can see
it. These days I don't even use .png as a fallback: Everyone can read
my Inkscape-authored graphics. SVG is THE standard for EPUB images.

And the fact that Inscape, for the most part, stuck to the SVG
standards, means that anybody wanting an additional feature can throw
together a Python program that parses the XML, reads the nodes, and
copies off to a modified version that incorporates the desired feature.

> Inkscape is the best thing we have for graphic design on Linux (at
> least), but it's still way too primitive. Could we dare to think
> bigger? Start our own standard?
>
> Just wondering. Is this a disaster or an opportunity?

Opportunity. Roll up your sleeves and code a translator to convert
*standard* SVG to a multipage display, or whatever you want.

But please: Inkscape works perfectly: Don't add a bunch of code, to
Inkscape itself, to give bugs nooks and crannies in which to hide out,
and don't diverge from SVG.

When it comes to Inkscape itself, as opposed to add-on programs, please
leave well enough alone.

SteveT

Steve Litt
April 2017 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
     of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

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Re: The SVG blues

C R
In reply to this post by doctormo
Does a dog bunk bed count? :D

On 21 Apr 2017 8:18 p.m., "Martin Owens" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 20:52 +0200, Donn Ingle wrote:
> I agree. In 2008, I used it to plan the top-view of my house! I
> printed it all out on multiple A4 pages and taped them together for
> the builder. Poor bugger. :D
>
> Awesome app. One of the jewels in the libre crown. No doubt.

Maybe we can all share our house plans in an inkscape.org gallery ;-)
sounds like we've all done it.

Martin,

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Re: The SVG blues

Donn Ingle
Ha. Yes! It houses many fleas. :

/d

On 21 Apr 2017 21:46, "C R" <[hidden email]> wrote:
Does a dog bunk bed count? :D

On 21 Apr 2017 8:18 p.m., "Martin Owens" <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 2017-04-21 at 20:52 +0200, Donn Ingle wrote:
> I agree. In 2008, I used it to plan the top-view of my house! I
> printed it all out on multiple A4 pages and taped them together for
> the builder. Poor bugger. :D
>
> Awesome app. One of the jewels in the libre crown. No doubt.

Maybe we can all share our house plans in an inkscape.org gallery ;-)
sounds like we've all done it.

Martin,

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Re: The SVG blues

Donn Ingle
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
On 21 April 2017 at 21:26, Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm very satified with Inkscape.

It's a great app.

To your points on my suggestions for new stuff in Inkscape: It's an old road, well worn. I don't wanna.

Bottom line is I don't think there's a good reason that software should be a false dilemma. There're ways to make it suit *many* kinds of minds. Look at what Firefox does with Addons, for example.

> "Right there in the app" is the entire issue I have with all of this.
> You have a perfectly good SVG file that secondary programs can
> manipulate to their heart's content. The minute Inscape becomes an SVG
> superset or SVG-noncompliant, this very valuable feature goes away.

I get it, and here's the thing: SVG, it's in serious trouble; fatal trouble if recent articles are to be heard. The Walking Doctype.

> > I think Inkscape could have, by now, matched what Flash, Freehand and
> > Corel et al. had 20 years ago!
>
> That 20 years point is a bit of an ad-hominem, don't you think?

Not intended as such.

My truth: I wish I could be as productive in design as I was in the late 90's. Linux has been my life for 17 years, but I could not continue in the design world because I'd left Windows, Adobe, yadda yadda... etc.

I have made-do. I have scripted and written Python apps. I have done All The Things to massage vectors into pixels and back. To squeeze HTML and ebooks and PDFs and images out of the stones in my $PATH. It's fun, but time spent there is time *not* spent designing artwork for clients.


> Yeah. That's why I can put an Inkscape-created SVG on
> Troubleshooters.Com, and anybody with a halfway modern browser can see
> it. These days I don't even use .png as a fallback: Everyone can read
> my Inkscape-authored graphics. SVG is THE standard for EPUB images.

Sure. I agree. The core of SVG that is respected by browsers (into the future) should be sacrosanct and Inkscape is unlikey to throw all that code out. Software accrues thus.

/d

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Re: The SVG blues

Abrolag
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:49:23 +0200
Donn Ingle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I get it, and here's the thing: SVG, it's in serious trouble; fatal trouble
> if recent articles are to be heard. The Walking Doctype.

In trouble?
News to me.

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W J G

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Re: The SVG blues

Donn Ingle
New to me too. There 's a link in my OP and this (another story) from Tav:
 http://tavmjong.free.fr/svg2_status.html

/d

On 21 April 2017 at 23:07, Abrolag <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 22:49:23 +0200
Donn Ingle <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I get it, and here's the thing: SVG, it's in serious trouble; fatal trouble
> if recent articles are to be heard. The Walking Doctype.

In trouble?
News to me.

--
W J G

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