new post - wish list

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new post - wish list

Andrew Kurn
I would like to post a wish list item.  I'll tell you the topic.
You tell me whether I can post it to the new forum (possible?)
and whether I should (advisable?).

The current user interface for drawing and editing splines
(Bezier) is bad.

I like the Gimp one much better, but partly because I'm used
to it.

We can go into detail, but this introduces the topic.
Let's improve the spline interface.  How to do it?

Andrew



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Re: new post - wish list

Brynn
Hi Andrew,
        As far as I understand, you will want to make a new feature request, in
the new gitlab bug tracker, which is here:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inbox/issues.  Click on the green "New Issue"
button.

        If you have technical or development details about how you think it
should work.....I'm not sure where that should go now that we've moved away from
Launchpad.  Maybe in the wiki?  Basically you would write a proposal with all
the details you have, and link that page into your gitlab Issue.

        Since I've answered, I might add that I've never used GIMP's vector
tools.  But I have the impression, from reading comments here and there, over
some years, that GIMP's vector tools are fairly rudimentary, and not nearly as
sophisticated as Inkscape's.  Personally I'm totally happy with Inkscape's
Pen/Bezier tool.  But now you've made me curious, and I might have to test
GIMP's tool.

        I wouldn't post it in the new forum yet, because not very many people
will see it.  But you could post it for discussion in other forums.  However,
keep in mind that the forums are primarily user forums, and developers probably
won't see it.  Devs will see it from gitlab and the wiki (or wherever).

        But one good thing about posting in a user forum, is that you might
learn about more Inkscape features that you weren't aware of before.  Or there
might be different ways to do some things.

        Hhmm....well, there might be some gitlab feature that would work for
such a proposal.  I'm not all that familiar with it, and typically get lost
there, if I'm looking at anything except Issues.  Maybe someone else can explain
about that, if there's a way to do it on gitlab.

All best,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kurn
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 5:16 PM
To: Inkscape User Community
Subject: [Inkscape-user] new post - wish list

I would like to post a wish list item.  I'll tell you the topic.
You tell me whether I can post it to the new forum (possible?)
and whether I should (advisable?).

The current user interface for drawing and editing splines
(Bezier) is bad.

I like the Gimp one much better, but partly because I'm used
to it.

We can go into detail, but this introduces the topic.
Let's improve the spline interface.  How to do it?

Andrew



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https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user 



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Re: new post - wish list

Victor Westmann
One thing I can tell is that I have bought the proprietary program called Affinity Designer and even though it is a very interesting application the bezier tools in there are not as sophisticated as they are in Inkscape. :)



On Sun, Jan 27, 2019, 3:22 PM brynn <[hidden email] wrote:
Hi Andrew,
        As far as I understand, you will want to make a new feature request, in
the new gitlab bug tracker, which is here:
https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inbox/issues.  Click on the green "New Issue"
button.

        If you have technical or development details about how you think it
should work.....I'm not sure where that should go now that we've moved away from
Launchpad.  Maybe in the wiki?  Basically you would write a proposal with all
the details you have, and link that page into your gitlab Issue.

        Since I've answered, I might add that I've never used GIMP's vector
tools.  But I have the impression, from reading comments here and there, over
some years, that GIMP's vector tools are fairly rudimentary, and not nearly as
sophisticated as Inkscape's.  Personally I'm totally happy with Inkscape's
Pen/Bezier tool.  But now you've made me curious, and I might have to test
GIMP's tool.

        I wouldn't post it in the new forum yet, because not very many people
will see it.  But you could post it for discussion in other forums.  However,
keep in mind that the forums are primarily user forums, and developers probably
won't see it.  Devs will see it from gitlab and the wiki (or wherever).

        But one good thing about posting in a user forum, is that you might
learn about more Inkscape features that you weren't aware of before.  Or there
might be different ways to do some things.

        Hhmm....well, there might be some gitlab feature that would work for
such a proposal.  I'm not all that familiar with it, and typically get lost
there, if I'm looking at anything except Issues.  Maybe someone else can explain
about that, if there's a way to do it on gitlab.

All best,
brynn

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kurn
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 5:16 PM
To: Inkscape User Community
Subject: [Inkscape-user] new post - wish list

I would like to post a wish list item.  I'll tell you the topic.
You tell me whether I can post it to the new forum (possible?)
and whether I should (advisable?).

The current user interface for drawing and editing splines
(Bezier) is bad.

I like the Gimp one much better, but partly because I'm used
to it.

We can go into detail, but this introduces the topic.
Let's improve the spline interface.  How to do it?

Andrew



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Re: new post - wish list

David Samarin
>> Victor Westmann wrote:
>> One thing I can tell is that I have bought the proprietary program called Affinity Designer
>> and even though it is a very interesting application the bezier tools in there are not
>> as sophisticated as they are in Inkscape.

Yup, Designer is quite the nice tool.

Reminds me of a review I've read somewhere out there in the wild where the reviewer comments that Inkscape always seems to be on the verge of greatness.

I know the intent was to be less-than-positive, but . . . at least they can admit to how close it really is.

 ~ David


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Re: new post - wish list

Brynn
In reply to this post by Andrew Kurn
2nd reply

Hhmm, after a bit of playing with GIMP paths, I'm a bit mystified exactly what
you might be wanting.  Is it just how the path is displayed that you like?  I
notice that the nodes and handles and paths are bigger.  Inkscape allows you to
make the nodes and handles bigger, and of course you could make the stroke as
wide as you like.

Oh, or could it be that annoying red flashing line for paths, that was added to
Inkscape a few versions ago?  I've never figured out what its purpose is, but
fortunately, it can be disabled.

Well in any case, when you make your request, be sure to be specific what you
want.  Even if you can't write up technical or programming suggestions, be sure
to explain or show mockups or screenshots or a video of the new things that
you'd like.

brynn

PS - Of course you're welcome to ask for support for the Inkscape path tools,
here in the User mailing list, or in forums or IRC.  Inkscape path tools can do
SO much more!  Or there's always the manual where you can learn on your own.

-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kurn
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 5:16 PM
To: Inkscape User Community
Subject: [Inkscape-user] new post - wish list

I would like to post a wish list item.  I'll tell you the topic.
You tell me whether I can post it to the new forum (possible?)
and whether I should (advisable?).

The current user interface for drawing and editing splines
(Bezier) is bad.

I like the Gimp one much better, but partly because I'm used
to it.

We can go into detail, but this introduces the topic.
Let's improve the spline interface.  How to do it?

Andrew



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Inkscape-user mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user 



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Re: new post - wish list

Andrew Kurn
In reply to this post by Brynn
OK, all,

I've posted it to Gitlab.  It is #168.  The description is
short enough that I felt it could fit in the space of a normal
issue.  So, I didn't reference any page anywhere else.

It's bad news that you have left Launchpad, since it is
mentioned frequently on the Inkscape web site . . . so
many users will be misdirected.

I looked around to see if there was anywhere to start a discussion,
but couldn't find anything.  The Wiki doesn't do automated
sign-ups and the only other place PHPBB has posts 12 years
old.

Andrew

On Sun 27 Jan 2019 16:22 -0700, brynn wrote:

>
> Hi Andrew,
>        As far as I understand, you will want to make a new feature request,
> in the new gitlab bug tracker, which is here:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inbox/issues.  Click on the green "New Issue"
> button.
>
>        If you have technical or development details about how you think it
> should work.....I'm not sure where that should go now that we've moved away
> from Launchpad.


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Re: new post - wish list

Ole Ersoy
This is my wish:

https://medium.com/@ole.ersoy/rewriting-inkscape-in-javascript-7e351738c37c

Cheers,

Ole

On 2/27/19 6:14 PM, Andrew Kurn wrote:

> OK, all,
>
> I've posted it to Gitlab.  It is #168.  The description is
> short enough that I felt it could fit in the space of a normal
> issue.  So, I didn't reference any page anywhere else.
>
> It's bad news that you have left Launchpad, since it is
> mentioned frequently on the Inkscape web site . . . so
> many users will be misdirected.
>
> I looked around to see if there was anywhere to start a discussion,
> but couldn't find anything.  The Wiki doesn't do automated
> sign-ups and the only other place PHPBB has posts 12 years
> old.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Sun 27 Jan 2019 16:22 -0700, brynn wrote:
>> Hi Andrew,
>>         As far as I understand, you will want to make a new feature request,
>> in the new gitlab bug tracker, which is here:
>> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inbox/issues.  Click on the green "New Issue"
>> button.
>>
>>         If you have technical or development details about how you think it
>> should work.....I'm not sure where that should go now that we've moved away
>> from Launchpad.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user
>


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Re: new post - wish list

doctormo
On Wed, 2019-02-27 at 18:55 -0600, Ole Ersoy wrote:
> This is my wish:
>
>
https://medium.com/@ole.ersoy/rewriting-inkscape-in-javascript-7e351738c37c

I completely understand the sentiment. And it's something that's been
tried (although bits and pieces, for different reasons). Though never
elektron.

I'm personally not moved. As a python and C++ developer I find
javascript to be the most clunky language with popularity. It's worse
than C++11 on the fundamentals (inkscape's current language). The
momentum behind Inkscape's codebase would mean a js version would
always be a ground up recreation anyway.

Best Regards, Martin Owens



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Re: new post - wish list

Shlomi Fish
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 21:24:05 -0500
[hidden email] wrote:

> On Wed, 2019-02-27 at 18:55 -0600, Ole Ersoy wrote:
> > This is my wish:
> >
> >  
> https://medium.com/@ole.ersoy/rewriting-inkscape-in-javascript-7e351738c37c
>
> I completely understand the sentiment. And it's something that's been
> tried (although bits and pieces, for different reasons). Though never
> elektron.
>

Note that it is spelled https://electronjs.org/ . No k.

> I'm personally not moved. As a python and C++ developer I find
> javascript to be the most clunky language with popularity. It's worse
> than C++11 on the fundamentals (inkscape's current language). The
> momentum behind Inkscape's codebase would mean a js version would
> always be a ground up recreation anyway.
>
> Best Regards, Martin Owens

Also see https://duckduckgo.com/?q=emscripten&atb=v141-3b_&ia=software as well
as https://github.com/QQuick/Transcrypt and http://pyjs.org/ and we can also
embed a js runtime engine in C++ code. Note that vs code which is electron
based is unusable over remote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X_Window_System
over my home wifi connection while the gtk-based gvim (see
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22gvim%22&atb=v141-3b_&ia=web ) is perfectly usable
and Qt-based apps are decent.

>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user



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Re: new post - wish list

Ole Ersoy
In reply to this post by doctormo

> I completely understand the sentiment. And it's something that's been
> tried (although bits and pieces, for different reasons). Though never
> elektron.
>
> I'm personally not moved. As a python and C++ developer I find
> javascript to be the most clunky language with popularity. It's worse
> than C++11 on the fundamentals (inkscape's current language). The
> momentum behind Inkscape's codebase would mean a js version would
> always be a ground up recreation anyway.

Martin have you looked at Typescript.  It's very close to C++ and the refactoring support in VSCode is quite good.  Not sure if Gravit uses it, but Gravit is a very good backdrop as to what is possible:

https://gravit.io/

Another interesting thing would be to have mini sub assemblies of Inkscape C++ vs. Inkscape V8 (Javascript) just to compare performance and code modularity / foot print size.

Cheers,

Ole




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Re: new post - wish list

Ole Ersoy
In reply to this post by Shlomi Fish
> Note that it is spelled https://electronjs.org/ . No k.

Fixed in the article too now and also rewrote it to incorporate features of the discussion to date.

Cheers,

Ole




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Re: new post - wish list

Brynn
In reply to this post by Andrew Kurn
Launchpad is mentioned frequently on the forum, only in reference to bugs.  I
would think (and hope) that anyone who thinks they have found a bug will either
post a new message  or visit the website, where either way, they will be
directed to gitlab.

We have done everything we can think of, to make sure people who want to report
a bug go to gitlab from now on.  Every mention of bugs on the website has been
edited, we've made posts in the forums, it's been announced in the mailing
lists, and in the new RocketChat channels.

I don't know, maybe there's some way to disallow new bug reports on Launchpad?
Or maybe a redirect from the new report button?

In any case, leaving Launchpad is not being done without good reason.  I can't
say exactly what the reason is -- a developer can probably explain it better
than me.

All best,
brynn



-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Kurn
Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2019 5:14 PM
To: Inkscape User Community
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-user] new post - wish list

OK, all,

I've posted it to Gitlab.  It is #168.  The description is
short enough that I felt it could fit in the space of a normal
issue.  So, I didn't reference any page anywhere else.

It's bad news that you have left Launchpad, since it is
mentioned frequently on the Inkscape web site . . . so
many users will be misdirected.

I looked around to see if there was anywhere to start a discussion,
but couldn't find anything.  The Wiki doesn't do automated
sign-ups and the only other place PHPBB has posts 12 years
old.

Andrew

On Sun 27 Jan 2019 16:22 -0700, brynn wrote:

>
> Hi Andrew,
>        As far as I understand, you will want to make a new feature request,
> in the new gitlab bug tracker, which is here:
> https://gitlab.com/inkscape/inbox/issues.  Click on the green "New Issue"
> button.
>
>        If you have technical or development details about how you think it
> should work.....I'm not sure where that should go now that we've moved away
> from Launchpad.


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Re: new post - wish list

Andrew Kurn
On Thu 28 Feb 2019 18:50 -0700, brynn wrote:
. . .

>
> We have done everything we can think of, to make sure people who want to
> report a bug go to gitlab from now on. . . .

Sorry.  I didn't mean to step on anybody's toes.  I know how
hard it is to keep a volunteer organization going.

Andrew



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Re: new post - wish list

Steve Litt
In reply to this post by Ole Ersoy
On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:55:16 -0600
Ole Ersoy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This is my wish:
>
> https://medium.com/@ole.ersoy/rewriting-inkscape-in-javascript-7e351738c37c
>
> Cheers,

Why in the WORLD would a team actively maintaining and improving a
complex graphical project for at least 12 years, with no hint of being
painted into a corner, stop dead in their tracks and rewrite their
software in another language? Why would anyone suggest they do so?

I understand the value of ElectronJS: I use Kivy occasionally and
apparently ElectronJS has the additional advantage of native look and
feel. I'd consider using ElectronJS for new construction.

But rewriting an existing application? No.

SteveT


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Re: new post - wish list

Ole Ersoy

> Why in the WORLD would a team actively maintaining and improving a
> complex graphical project for at least 12 years, with no hint of being
> painted into a corner, stop dead in their tracks and rewrite their
> software in another language? Why would anyone suggest they do so?

For the same reason is driving developers to switch to VSCode.  I have added many more technical and strategic reasons, including expanding the potential developer pool (There are a lot more Javascript developers than C++ and the inverse relationship is accelerating because Javascript can run on both the server and client), but the main reason I would do it personally is because it's fun and it would expand my skill sets in new and creative ways:

https://medium.com/@ole.ersoy/rewriting-inkscape-in-javascript-7e351738c37c

Newer vector graphics software like Gravit Designer could render Inkscape irrelevant depending on the speed and iteration at which they and VSCode editor plugin development executes.  Once users start sharing prototypes of drawings in the cloud and are able to live edit and fork instances of drawings it becomes a natural default to gravitate to.  Does that paint Inkscape into a corner? Who knows?  But it's definitely a better application if it can be embedded in blog posts and served up as a progressive web application with shared sub components that are consumed by an expanding ecosystem of users.

Cheers,

Ole



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Re: new post - wish list

Will Godfrey
On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 01:17:24 -0600
Ole Ersoy <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> Why in the WORLD would a team actively maintaining and improving a
>> complex graphical project for at least 12 years, with no hint of being
>> painted into a corner, stop dead in their tracks and rewrite their
>> software in another language? Why would anyone suggest they do so?  
>
>For the same reason is driving developers to switch to VSCode.  I have added many more technical and strategic reasons, including expanding the potential developer pool (There are a lot more Javascript developers than C++ and the inverse relationship is accelerating because Javascript can run on both the server and client), but the main reason I would do it personally is because it's fun and it would expand my skill sets in new and creative ways:
>
>https://medium.com/@ole.ersoy/rewriting-inkscape-in-javascript-7e351738c37c
>
>Newer vector graphics software like Gravit Designer could render Inkscape irrelevant depending on the speed and iteration at which they and VSCode editor plugin development executes.  Once users start sharing prototypes of drawings in the cloud and are able to live edit and fork instances of drawings it becomes a natural default to gravitate to.  Does that paint Inkscape into a corner? Who knows?  But it's definitely a better application if it can be embedded in blog posts and served up as a progressive web application with shared sub components that are consumed by an expanding ecosystem of users.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Ole

As an ordinary user, the further away I can get from javascript the better!
It's a malware artists wet dream :(
As for 'cloud' (someone else's computer I have no control over), I'd rather
leave the family silver on Dartmoor.

--
Will J Godfrey
http://www.musically.me.uk
Say you have a poem and I have a tune.
Exchange them and we can both have a poem, a tune, and a song.


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Re: new post - wish list

Shlomi Fish
In reply to this post by Steve Litt
Hi all,

On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 01:04:09 -0500
Steve Litt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wed, 27 Feb 2019 18:55:16 -0600
> Ole Ersoy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > This is my wish:
> >
> > https://medium.com/@ole.ersoy/rewriting-inkscape-in-javascript-7e351738c37c
> >
> > Cheers,  
>
> Why in the WORLD would a team actively maintaining and improving a
> complex graphical project for at least 12 years, with no hint of being
> painted into a corner, stop dead in their tracks and rewrite their
> software in another language? Why would anyone suggest they do so?
>

also see
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/
and https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/23/rub-a-dub-dub/ for why rewriting
is ill advised and for an alternative. This can be mitigated to an extent by
gradually translating and embedding/interfacing individual pieces of code. (a la
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(mythology) ).

> I understand the value of ElectronJS: I use Kivy occasionally and
> apparently ElectronJS has the additional advantage of native look and
> feel. I'd consider using ElectronJS for new construction.
>
> But rewriting an existing application? No.
>
> SteveT
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-user mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-user



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Re: new post - wish list

Ole Ersoy

> https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/
> and https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2002/01/23/rub-a-dub-dub/ for why rewriting
> is ill advised and for an alternative. This can be mitigated to an extent by
> gradually translating and embedding/interfacing individual pieces of code. (a la
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(mythology) ).

Should probably have used to word "Transferring" and "Modularizing" instead of "Rewriting".  I'm sure the Inkscape devs are brilliant and the code is solid.  The medium posts is more targeted at what you can do once the code sits in a different platform, which I also presume will make the entire architecture nimble WRT embedding and collaborating on the web and module reuse / sharing.

Ole




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Re: new post - wish list

doctormo
On Sat, 2019-03-02 at 16:14 -0600, Ole Ersoy wrote:
> Should probably have used to word "Transferring" and "Modularizing"
> instead of "Rewriting".  I'm sure the Inkscape devs are brilliant and
> the code is solid.  The medium posts is more targeted at what you can
> do once the code sits in a different platform, which I also presume
> will make the entire architecture nimble WRT embedding and
> collaborating on the web and module reuse / sharing.

Inkscape is currently the most extensive SVG renderer; how would one
transfer or moduralise to Javascript while replacing Cairo and all the
intensive bits of technology?

Inkscape is much more extensive and intensive than most developers even
understand. It's both why it's harder to code for and also why it's
very hard to replace.

Best Regards, Martin Owens



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Re: new post - wish list

Ole Ersoy
> Inkscape is currently the most extensive SVG renderer; how would one
> transfer or moduralise to Javascript while replacing Cairo and all the
> intensive bits of technology?

The Javascript version could start out as an experimental javascript branch / playground for anyone interested.  The two could be complementary.  Personally I usually prototype in typescript or javascript because they are simple to setup and very approachable, but if I'm creating server side code I may convert the final to Java depending on how stress / performance tests, dependency robustness evaluation, etc. go.

I would not view the current Inkscape vs a Javascript version / approach as mutually exclusive, but complementary.

As far as development approach -- breaking each "Intensive bit of technology gem" down by use case / module and examining the possibilities from there I'm certain would yield some interesting discoveries.  For some blue sky context:

https://css-tricks.com/rendering-svg-paths-in-webgl/

If done right Inkscape could be the core hub for open source SVG Javascript development feeding upstream libraries.

Javascript SVG Drawing APIs / Implementations (Perhaps Inkscape could provide some standard interfaces bringing these together):

https://svgjs.com/docs/2.7/

http://snapsvg.io/

https://bonsaijs.org/

http://dmitrybaranovskiy.github.io/raphael/

https://www.npmjs.com/package/two.js

https://github.com/sebmarkbage/art/

http://fabricjs.com/

http://velocityjs.org/

> Inkscape is much more extensive and intensive than most developers even
> understand.
That I'm sure of!  It's an engineering gem.
> It's both why it's harder to code for and also why it's
> very hard to replace.

NO REPLACE!!  ENHANCE and COMPLEMENT!! :)

Cheers,

Ole




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