terminology proposal

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terminology proposal

Jakub Steiner
Hi folks,
Until yesterday I haven't had a chance to play with what you call
effects. Because I believe this is a misleading terminology I want to
propose an alternative:


Scripts
-------
Scripts are little programs, written in interpreted language, that
supply extended Inkscape functionality. They can work on objects, or
even drav new objects on the canvas.

Both Blender and GIMP projects eventually came to a conclusion that it
makes no sense to separate scripts form the core functionality in terms
of interface. A script should be free to register anywhere in the menus,
based on its functionality. Grouping them, creating yet another menu
structure, just because they are written in a particular language is not
helpful to the user.

Yes, it is pretty much what you call effects now.

Filters
-------
Filters are operations on selected objects, on their bitmap renderings
even. The result of the filter replaces the original object and cannot
be easily changed in future. The resulting image is stored in the file
upon save.

Effects
-------
Effects are similar to filters, yet they are "dynamically" applied on a
bitmap copy of the object at the target resolution. Only effect settings
are stored in the file on save, and the effect needs to be recalculated
(possibly some caching/preview voodoo needs to be applied to speed up
preview).  

cheers

--
Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>
Novell, Inc.



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Re: terminology proposal

Aaron and Sarah Spike
Jakub Steiner wrote:
> Until yesterday I haven't had a chance to play with what you call
> effects. Because I believe this is a misleading terminology I want to
> propose an alternative:

I agree we need some terminology to use for these features. Everyday I
try to figure out how what I should call these things when talking to
people with problems. Your suggestion is great because it looks at
extensions from the users point of view. Currently we concentrate on
implementation details when we talk about extensions. But for
troubleshooting, implementation is very important. So I think we will
need some words for that too.

You will notice that extensions already appear in the menus where they
would be expected. Input extensions appear in the file open dialog.
Likewise output extensions appear in the save dialog. Filter extensions,
those that change the svg document inside of Inkscape, appear in the
Effects menu. Your terminology is so far only concerned with filter
extensions.

Depending on the implementation, each extension will also be one of
External, Internal, and Plugin.

External extensions are often called scripts now, but can be written in
any language, compiled or not. They are loosely coupled with inkscape
and not able to make use of Inkscape's features. External extensions
allow inkscape to use any program that can operate on svg from the
command line even if it wasn't written especially for Inkscape's use,
eg. commercial file conversion packages. External extensions are
probably most appropriate for what you have called Scripts and Filters.

Internal extensions do not exist yet. They will be most analogous to
what other programs like GIMP call scripts. They will use embedded
interpreters. Because they will be more closely coupled with Inkscape
they may be able to call some of Inkscapes features, eg boolean ops, or
even External extensions.

Plugins are written in C++ and are the most closely coupled with
Inkscape. For performance reasons this is probably the only
implementation that is appropriate for what you call Effects.

We are quickly running out of words and there is some very confusing
overlap between your description and the current description of
implementation.

Thanks for bringing this up.
Aaron Spike



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Re: terminology proposal

John Pybus
In reply to this post by Jakub Steiner
Jakub Steiner wrote:
> Hi folks,
> Until yesterday I haven't had a chance to play with what you call
> effects. Because I believe this is a misleading terminology I want to
> propose an alternative:

Having commonly understood terminology is good, but you should probably
bear in mind that SVG, though not yet implement in inkscape, already has
the concept of "Filter Effects" implemented through a <filter> element.
  These appear to correspond to your concept of effects rather than your
filters.

See http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/filters.html

Cheers,

John



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Re: terminology proposal

MenTaLguY
In reply to this post by Jakub Steiner
Quoting Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>:

> Hi folks,
> Until yesterday I haven't had a chance to play with what you call
> effects. Because I believe this is a misleading terminology I
> want to propose an alternative:
>
>
> Scripts

I'd prefer Scripts, myself.

"Effects" in the sense suggested should probably be reserved to
refer to SVG Filter Effects[1].

-mental

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG/filters.html


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Re: terminology proposal

Aaron Spike-2
[hidden email] wrote:

> Quoting Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>:
>
>
>>Hi folks,
>>Until yesterday I haven't had a chance to play with what you call
>>effects. Because I believe this is a misleading terminology I
>>want to propose an alternative:
>>
>>
>>Scripts
>
>
> I'd prefer Scripts, myself.
>
> "Effects" in the sense suggested should probably be reserved to
> refer to SVG Filter Effects[1].

But don't forget that SVG can also have embeded Scripts.

Aaron Spike



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Re: terminology proposal

Ted Gould
In reply to this post by Jakub Steiner
On Wed, 22 Jun 2005, Jakub Steiner wrote:
> Until yesterday I haven't had a chance to play with what you call
> effects. Because I believe this is a misleading terminology I want to
> propose an alternative:

Well, we've debated these names several times before... my only opinion on
it is that I'm not changing the name in the codebase again -- I think
we're already using two naming conventions in several places and I don't
want to add another.  I don't care as much about the GUI strings.  
Probably before we have this discussion this document should be read by
everyone:

http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/inkscape/inkscape/doc/extension_system.txt?rev=1.3&view=markup

Specifically "Terminology" and "Overview"

I'd also recommend looking at the effects "Grid" and "Blur Edge" which
don't use an script to execute -- they are built into the codebase and
written in C++.

                --Ted


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RE: terminology proposal

Joshua A. Andler
> I'd also recommend looking at the effects "Grid" and "Blur Edge" which
> don't use an script to execute -- they are built into the codebase and
> written in C++.

And those are the effects that have never worked for me... they don't
even pretend to do anything. Any ideas on that?

-Josh






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Re: terminology proposal

Ted Gould
Joshua A. Andler wrote:
>>I'd also recommend looking at the effects "Grid" and "Blur Edge" which
>>don't use an script to execute -- they are built into the codebase and
>>written in C++.
>
> And those are the effects that have never worked for me... they don't
> even pretend to do anything. Any ideas on that?

No idea on grid, it should pretty much work all the time... blur edge is
tricky because it only works on paths.  So if you draw an object, you
need to convert the object to a path first.  I tried doing that
automatically, but I haven't gotten that part working yet.

Try grid again, you might try removing the entries for it in your
preferences file just incase you put something funny in there.  Also,
wait a little bit, it can create a large path that sometimes takes
Inkscape a while to render.

                --Ted



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Re: terminology proposal

Craig Bradney
In reply to this post by Aaron Spike-2
On Wednesday 22 June 2005 18:14, [hidden email] wrote:

> [hidden email] wrote:
> > Quoting Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>:
> >>Hi folks,
> >>Until yesterday I haven't had a chance to play with what you call
> >>effects. Because I believe this is a misleading terminology I
> >>want to propose an alternative:
> >>
> >>
> >>Scripts
> >
> > I'd prefer Scripts, myself.
> >
> > "Effects" in the sense suggested should probably be reserved to
> > refer to SVG Filter Effects[1].
>
> But don't forget that SVG can also have embeded Scripts.

How about Macros? (I know, bring about nasty feeling of embedded .scr, .xls
or .doc macros, but anyway)

Craig


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RE: terminology proposal

Joshua A. Andler
 Quoting Craig Bradney

> Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2005 2:21 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] terminology proposal
>
> On Wednesday 22 June 2005 18:14, [hidden email] wrote:
> > [hidden email] wrote:
> > > Quoting Jakub Steiner <[hidden email]>:
> > >>Hi folks,
> > >>Until yesterday I haven't had a chance to play with what you call
> > >>effects. Because I believe this is a misleading terminology I
> > >>want to propose an alternative:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>Scripts
> > >
> > > I'd prefer Scripts, myself.
> > >
> > > "Effects" in the sense suggested should probably be reserved to
> > > refer to SVG Filter Effects[1].
> >
> > But don't forget that SVG can also have embeded Scripts.
>
> How about Macros? (I know, bring about nasty feeling of embedded .scr,
> .xls
> or .doc macros, but anyway)

I think that Macros is honestly an even worse term for it. Typically a
macro system is something set up so that you can easily record and play
back a series of steps (whether key presses, movements, menu selection,
etc).

So, people that use Office apps as well as Adobe's suite for example
would just be confused by calling them that. In addition, you can
typically include what we currently call "Effects" in the macros that
you record (in similar apps).

I dunno... I think the terminology stuff is pretty tough to decide on.
In the SVG world, filter is a reserved term. Effects in graphics apps do
typically tend to be a little more dynamic so that if you change
original shapes it will update the effect. Perhaps script is the most
appropriate even though it will be confusing to non-technical users. I
dunno... just my .02 =/

-Josh





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Re: terminology proposal

Ted Gould
Joshua A. Andler wrote:
> I dunno... I think the terminology stuff is pretty tough to decide on.
> In the SVG world, filter is a reserved term. Effects in graphics apps do
> typically tend to be a little more dynamic so that if you change
> original shapes it will update the effect. Perhaps script is the most
> appropriate even though it will be confusing to non-technical users. I
> dunno... just my .02 =/

And, we're already using the word "scripts" to describe something
different.  There is the functionality and the implementation:

   Function              Implementation
  ----------            ----------------

    Input                   Script
    Output                  Internal
    Print                   Plug-in
    Effect

Any of those can be matched with the other.  So, most of the stuff that
Aaron has written are extensions that implement an effect with a script.

I think the real problem is that we're running out of words, so we
should make up a new one.  I'm voting "Equodes" -- we can tell people
that it is a word in Esperanto, no one speaks it to tell them
differently.  :)

                --Ted



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Re: terminology proposal

bulia byak
I haven't followed this discussion, but one thing that bugs me is that
the menu is called Effects, even though it provides access to what we
call Extensions, and even though SVG has "effects" of its own. Do you
think we should rename the menu to Extensions?

--
bulia byak
Inkscape. Draw Freely.
http://www.inkscape.org


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Re: terminology proposal

Alexandre Prokoudine
On 6/29/05, bulia byak <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I haven't followed this discussion, but one thing that bugs me is that
> the menu is called Effects, even though it provides access to what we
> call Extensions, and even though SVG has "effects" of its own. Do you
> think we should rename the menu to Extensions?

Would it be good to have two different Extensions and Effects menus
then (as soon as Inkscape starts using Cairo, so that coding true SVG
effects will be possible)? Note that GIMP devs merge all
Script-Fu/Python-Fu/Tiny-Fu/Perl-Fu into one Effects menu in 2.3
branch.

Alexandre


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Re: terminology proposal

Aaron Spike-2
In reply to this post by bulia byak
bulia byak wrote:
> I haven't followed this discussion, but one thing that bugs me is that
> the menu is called Effects, even though it provides access to what we
> call Extensions, and even though SVG has "effects" of its own. Do you
> think we should rename the menu to Extensions?

It is called Effects, because it provides access to the Extensions we
call Effects. Effects act as a filter and change the document. There are
also input and output Extensions that appear in the File Open and Save
dialogs rather than this menu.

Aaron Spike





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Re: terminology proposal

Bugzilla from horkana@maths.tcd.ie
In reply to this post by bulia byak

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005, bulia byak wrote:

> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2005 05:16:27 -0300
> From: bulia byak <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: Ted Gould <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] terminology proposal
>
> I haven't followed this discussion, but one thing that bugs me is that
> the menu is called Effects, even though it provides access to what we
> call Extensions, and even though SVG has "effects" of its own. Do you
> think we should rename the menu to Extensions?

No.

I'm not sure exactly what the exact reasoning is for naming top level
menus but the word "Extensions" doesn't fit the pattern.  (Extras might be
an adequate choice.)

In the end it is the users that matter and the inconsistent technical
meanings are largely irrelevant.  It is harsh but exposing the users to
the underlying implementation details is a really bad idea and it had to
be said.

From the point of view of users familiar with other graphics applications
the only two most obvious and familiar choices for this menu are
Filters and
Effects.  Filters has certain photography related connotations and as it
is more specific it seems more incongruous in a Drawing Application.

Usability has a fancy name for taking a look at what everyone
else does, so here's the competative analysis:

Xara X uses Extras.
Adobe Illustrator uses both Filters and Effects.
Macromedia uses/used the pretentiously mispelled Xtras.
Corel Draw uses Effects and Extras.

(Your Milemage May Vary.  This "research" was conducted quickly and with
the help of Google Image Search [1].)

Extras is awfully vague and wouldn't be my first choice but if that is was
people decided was best I wouldn't bother arguing over it.  (The GIMP is
reorganising and reconsidering their menu layout and naming scheme and may
well have an Extras menu instead of Xtns by the time the next version
arrives.)

There is also the possibility of adding a Tools menu.  (I specifically do
not mean a redundant Tools menu like that found in the GIMP and several of
its imitators).  I mean a Tools menu like the stucture used by Office
programs, Mozilla and metric tonne of other applications and I would
suggest using it in addition to whatever else you decide.  Having a tools
menu of this variety will give you a place for the kinds of plugins which
are simply too odd to be in a Filters/Effects menu.

(Spent way too much time on this already, gotta go.)

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

Inkscape http://inkscape.org
Dia http://gnome.org/projects/dia/
Open Clip Art http://OpenClipArt.org

Alan's Diary http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/

[1] This comparsion of drawing applications provided screenshots of
iGrafx, Illustrator, and Corel Draw but I haven't read it yet:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/misc/software_test.htm


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Re: terminology proposal

Nicu Buculei (OCAL)
Alan Horkan wrote:
>
> Extras is awfully vague and wouldn't be my first choice but if that is was
> people decided was best I wouldn't bother arguing over it.  (The GIMP is
> reorganising and reconsidering their menu layout and naming scheme and may
> well have an Extras menu instead of Xtns by the time the next version
> arrives.)

If GIMP in renaming the Xtns menu to Extras, I think consistency is a
good argument for Inkscape to use the same terminology

--
nicu


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Re: terminology proposal

Bugzilla from horkana@maths.tcd.ie

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Nicu Buculei wrote:

> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2005 09:15:45 +0300
> From: Nicu Buculei <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] terminology proposal
>
> Alan Horkan wrote:
> >
> > Extras is awfully vague and wouldn't be my first choice but if that is was
> > people decided was best I wouldn't bother arguing over it.  (The GIMP is
> > reorganising and reconsidering their menu layout and naming scheme and may
> > well have an Extras menu instead of Xtns by the time the next version
> > arrives.)
>
> If GIMP in renaming the Xtns menu to Extras, I think consistency is a
> good argument for Inkscape to use the same terminology

Nothing is certain yet but any reorganisation that is going to happen will
likely be within the next one or two unstable releases.

- Alan



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Re: terminology proposal

Nicu Buculei (OCAL)
Alan Horkan wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Nicu Buculei wrote:
>
>>Alan Horkan wrote:
>>
>>>Extras is awfully vague and wouldn't be my first choice but if that is was
>>>people decided was best I wouldn't bother arguing over it.  (The GIMP is
>>>reorganising and reconsidering their menu layout and naming scheme and may
>>>well have an Extras menu instead of Xtns by the time the next version
>>>arrives.)
>>
>>If GIMP in renaming the Xtns menu to Extras, I think consistency is a
>>good argument for Inkscape to use the same terminology
>
>
> Nothing is certain yet but any reorganisation that is going to happen will
> likely be within the next one or two unstable releases.

This looks to me like another argument for the benefit of the "create"
project where we intend to establish a communication channel for
coordinating such things.


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